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HX-Stomp to passive wedge on stage: What do I need?


Elephantstomp
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Hello,

 

I´d like to connect my HX-Stomp directly to a passive wedge on stage.

(I also get a second wedge with the bandmix coming from FOH)

There are all kinds of pedalboard amps on the market, but those are designed for 4 to 16Ohm guitar cabs.

What kind of smallest amp do I need to power a passive wedge?

Are there pedalboard amps for this as well?

Or can I use the same pedalamps as for the guitarcabs?

 

Main out left (TRS) to FOH.

Send out to wedge: What would be the easiest way to control the volume independent?

The Main out volume must not change.

 

Thank you

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I am not certain what you mean by pedalboard amps but you'll want a small P/A amplifier to power your wedge.
Go to your preferred music gear store website and browse the Pro Audio section to find their selection of P/A amps.

You'll want to know the power handling capability of the wedge first and get something appropriate.

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On 5/23/2022 at 9:06 AM, Elephantstomp said:

Main out left (TRS) to FOH.

Send out to wedge: What would be the easiest way to control the volume independent?

The Main out volume must not change.

 

I would approach it a little differently... 

  1. Insert a SEND prior to the main out...
  2. Connect the SEND to a DI Box, then connect that to the FOH (the SEND will never change in volume)
  3. Connect the MAIN output to your personal monitor... you can change that volume without altering the level the FOH is getting from the send. 

You need a clean/transparent power amp for a passive monitor. Most pedal board amps would be short on power, and probably add too much color to the tone.  IMO - it would be more advantageous to just find a decent little powered monitor, or an FRFR.

 

Just my 2 cents.... 

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Unless you already have a "passive wedge monitor"... 

I would buy a powered one. FRFR-type systems come in a variety of shapes and sizes. Many are designed to look like a wedge monitor - it points away from the audience to prevent messing with FOH, and it sits on the floor so as not to block the audience's view. Plus, it gives you a place to put your foot and do rock star poses. 

 

And getting the 'band mix' in the other monitor... let the sound man provide that one. That is what he is there for. 

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Thanks so far!

I want to use whatever wedges that are provided by the locations.

I won´t have an own wedge as i am traveling with just my guitar and HX-Stomp to gigs.

So a monitor with bandsound is always a given by the soundguys.

I just like to use a second wedge for guitar only, preferably direct from my HX-Stomp.

And for easy transport it should be small or pedal sized.

I have the impression that most amps of that kind are designed for using guitarcabs.

Something without "guitar amplifier coloration" would be good, as my sound is already done

and just needs to get amplified unaltered as possible for "frfr".

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Well an unpowered wedge is about as far from an FRFR as you can possibly get, but in your case with your limitations it's probably about as good as you'll get.  The problem with unpowered wedges (which modern powered speakers correct) is they use a very simple crossover circuit between the speaker and the horn for low and high frequencies.  Unfortunately that creates a dropout in the frequencies where the crossover is situated which is generally right around the area of frequencies most commonly prevalent in guitar sound.  A neutral amp can't correct that, but without adding  more equipment to the mix I'm not sure there's any answer for it.

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Ah, and I thought the "lollipop guitarsound" from FOH to my wedge is caused by tweakings to be a good part of the bandmix.

I always dealt with it, because it´s supposed to be a good monitoring for me, not the best audiophile experience.

So if anyone has more hints for "little amplifiers that give me a powered line signal to connect to passive wedges" I am grateful.

It´s fine for me to not have the best sound on my personal wedge. The sound from the main outs to FOH (and to audience) will always be good and is anyways out of my control.

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On 5/24/2022 at 3:52 AM, Elephantstomp said:

I won´t have an own wedge as i am traveling with just my guitar and HX-Stomp to gigs.

So a monitor with bandsound is always a given by the soundguys.

I just like to use a second wedge for guitar only, preferably direct from my HX-Stomp.

 

Why not just ask for a 2nd wedge/mix and have them only put the "guitar only" in that mix. 

IME... If the sound company doesn't have enough monitor mixes, then they are not likely to have a "spare wedge" for you to use.

 

If by chance they do have a passive wedge, they won't want you using a small pedalboard amp into it. When you underpower a wedge, the more likely you are to blow the horn/tweeter.  If you had to carry a proper/appropriate power amp to a gig that would completely defeat the purpose of what you are doing, and you might as well carry a small powered monitor of your own. 

 

 

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On 5/24/2022 at 7:49 AM, Elephantstomp said:

I thought the "lollipop guitarsound" from FOH to my wedge is caused by tweakings to be a good part of the bandmix.

 

IME - this is the result of a few possibilities. 

  1. The monitor "wedge" quality is not very good.
  2. The monitors are not very well tuned (EQ'd).
  3. If the monitors are mixed from the FOH... then the tech may be over correcting the tone you are providing. 
    • Could be a poorly tuned FOH system forcing the tech to apply too much EQ that wreaks havoc with the monitors.
    • Could be a mediocre tech not sure of what they are doing.
    • Could be the tones you are providing aren't ready for prime time yet  (I purposely leave that to last... as I prefer to assume you are creating great tones already)
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As always in life and live things are mixed calculations.

I wanted to go direct to one of those wedges to be able to adjust volume on the fly by my own if necessary.

Getting a second wedge was never an issue, because we´re just drums, bass, 1x guitar and 1x vocals.

But now I see the downsides of my plan.

So i am gonna stick with the second wedge with "guitar only" provided by FOH.

I prefer mobility at best.

Ah and I very like my guitarsound when it comes from my Studimonitors or Rehearsal FRFR or Headphones.

So that´s not a general issue for me.

It was just a few times when the wedge on stage sounded less prime time.

Didn´t care much for the reasons then, because the sound for the audience was fine.

 

Thanks alot for your productive input!

 

 

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On 5/24/2022 at 8:54 AM, codamedia said:

Why not just ask for a 2nd wedge/mix and have them only put the "guitar only" in that mix. 

 

From what I gather from talking to people online... this is not the norm. 'Professional' stuff like that simply isn't available to commoners.  

I mean, it is for me. It is for anyone that cares. But you run into people from all walks of life online, not just your own circle of friends. 

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:58 AM, Elephantstomp said:

Ah and I very like my guitarsound when it comes from my Studimonitors or Rehearsal FRFR or Headphones.

 

I am kinda the same way. Where I know my sound is good. 

Which is why, I don't need the best quality or most tonally flat system. I just need to be able to hear myself. 

 

 

But even if a sound company allowed you to use one of their monitors with your own amp, we wouldn't be able to say "8ohms". Because the next night, you might run into one that is 16. 

 

 

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On 5/24/2022 at 8:49 AM, Elephantstomp said:

Ah, and I thought the "lollipop guitarsound" from FOH to my wedge is caused by tweakings to be a good part of the bandmix.

I always dealt with it, because it´s supposed to be a good monitoring for me, not the best audiophile experience.

So if anyone has more hints for "little amplifiers that give me a powered line signal to connect to passive wedges" I am grateful.

It´s fine for me to not have the best sound on my personal wedge. The sound from the main outs to FOH (and to audience) will always be good and is anyways out of my control.

Honestly, if your stage volume is relatively contained, you might do well with just carrying along a decent little practice amp like a Positive Grid Spark and place it in front of you.  You could use a send from the Helix to the Spark prior to any amps and effects in the Helix signal chain so your amps and effects would go correctly to the audience, but you could have a fairly decent sound on stage from the guitar amp and just use the wedge for everything else.

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:34 AM, pianoguyy said:

From what I gather from talking to people online... this is not the norm. 'Professional' stuff like that simply isn't available to commoners.  

 

I know that's not the norm, but he said he is relying on the sound techs and their gear. It would be impossible to do that without a setup capable of monitor mixes... and hopefully an extra one. I had to make an assumption :) 

 

On 5/24/2022 at 8:58 AM, Elephantstomp said:

But now I see the downsides of my plan.

So i am gonna stick with the second wedge with "guitar only" provided by FOH.

 

Good luck, I hope that works out for you. 

 

FWIW... whenever possible I hear my Helix through my monitor mix, along with everything else - but I do run it fairly hot, along with my vocal. I carry an FRFR for times when the monitors might not be good enough, just to supplement the tone/volume on my side of the stage. 

 

 

 

 

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Hello,

some news:

 

I decided to use Inear monitoring.

I anyways have good conchas (perfect fitting inears).

I am able to sacrifice TWO BLOCKS.

I know there are other routing options for this, but the following way suits best to me.

At the end of the signal chain I put an A/B split to path B with a RETURN (Mono: band mix from FOH or rehearsal mixer without my guitar) and a SEND (stereo: Inear).

Path B is not merged to path A again (so it´s not on the main outs).

The Inears contain the bandmix from RETURN and my guitar from path A (blended to taste by the A/B split).

The volume of my guitar is not going to be adjusted (for Inear), as i dont want to exceed this volume for safety reasons anyway.

I adjust the AUXes to RETURN at our rehearsal mixer (Bandsound without guitar).

At gigs this will be done by the soundguy.

With this setup i can still use the main outs with just my guitar to FOH.

To be independent from the soundguy during the gig i could connect a volume knob pedal to RETURN (bandmix) to adjust the volume global for Inear.

(I could adjust it in the return block as well, but this would have to be done for all presets. Thats not possible for me on stage on the fly).

So far at rehearsal this setup worked very well.

In addition and as a safety net I am going the standard way and use one wedge with a complete bandmix provided by the location.

 

Any thoughts for a tiny pedal with a knob (not like a wah...too big) for adjusting the mono line signal (bandmix)?

Would this work for me?

https://www.vuetec.de/SW53/audio/pegeldaempfung/pegelsteller-variabel/340/pegelsteller-mkp29-mono-xlr3-symmetrisch-i/os?c=1536

Here an overview for different connections:

https://www.vuetec.de/SW53/audio/pegeldaempfung/pegelsteller-variabel/

 

And which cable for the monitormix (from the soundguy) would be most common?

TRS/TS/XLR

 

Thanks

 

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On 6/2/2022 at 2:07 AM, Elephantstomp said:

And which cable for the monitormix (from the soundguy) would be most common?

TRS/TS/XLR

 

They will most often send XLR (the MALE end will be given to you). I have never been given a TRS or TS line in this situation... but that doesn't mean it can't happen. 

 

On 6/2/2022 at 2:07 AM, Elephantstomp said:

Any thoughts for a tiny pedal with a knob (not like a wah...too big) for adjusting the mono line signal (bandmix)?

 

The most flexible option would be a FEMALE XLR/TRS Combo Input & a TRS/TS output but I don't see one in that list you sent.

The one unit you do point out would be your best option from that list. You will need an appropriate cable to connect the stomp. 

 

FWIW... I would approach this a different way. Instead of using the Stomp to power the IEM (which I find convoluted) I'd just buy a two channel headphone amp.... something like the Behringer P1 which is a similar price to the items you are already looking at.   
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_powerplay_p1.htm

 

  1. Set it to MONO operation (it then works as two channel mono instead of stereo)
  2. Connect the stomp signal to one channel and the monitor mix to the other channel
  3. Use that as your headphone amp... the volume controls the overall level, the "balance" controls the blend between the stomp and the mix. 
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I thought about outsourcing the IEM routing as well but wanted to try the less equipment as possible way.

But if I think about a volume device anyways I should go that way proper.

So now I ordered a Rolls pm50se and will try the next days.

First i liked the idea of an included limiter (Rolls pm55p) but decided against it. A limiter works best with knowing the impedance of the headphone.

But the internal limiter cant be tweaked.

I also couldnt find information how well the limiter works.

So I decided for the smaller and cheaper box.

https://rolls.com/product/PM50se

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Thanks, but isn´t the baby bomb just for guitar cabs?

 

I tested the rolls pm50se at home and rehearsal

The signal from HX stomps main out: 0dB (line) caused the rolls to clip.

I had to reduce it to -20dB to be fine. But exactly this is anyways mentioned in the specs, as i read afterwards.

 

Rehearsal was a charm with this little box.

Dialing in "the band" and "me " to taste for my inears was flawless.

 

So I am back to the inear-monitoring-club and see no need for a wedge on stage anymore now.

 

So long :-)

 

 

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