Advanced/tricky 4CM question

[boynigel]

Sometimes I use my LT strictly as an effects pedal w/my amp via 4CM.  I was wondering if the following scenario is possible-

 

I’d like to be able to use a Helix preamp-only amp block for those occasions where I want a Vox AC tone.  At first I thought it would be simple enough to just put it after the fx loop return block on a given preset, but then it occurred to me that it would still be getting fed a signal from my  amp’s preamp.  

 

So in a perfect world I’d be using my amp’s preamp section most of the time, but for certain songs I’d like to be able to disable my amp’s preamp, and insert a Helix amp preamp block in its place.

 

Does Helix have any tricks that would make this possible?

[MGW-Alberta]

Well .... I suppose you could place two amp blocks on your preset, one in the normal spot and one in the send/returns part from the loop.  Then set it up so one is deactivated when the other is activated.  You would do that with a snapshot, I guess.  I'm pretty sure there would be the possibility of loud popping noises.  Many people report loud pops when an amp block is switch on or off.  That's something I have never done in any of my presets so I have no experience with it.

[rd2rk]

On 5/25/2022 at 3:49 PM, boynigel said:

Sometimes I use my LT strictly as an effects pedal w/my amp via 4CM.  I was wondering if the following scenario is possible-

 

I’d like to be able to use a Helix preamp-only amp block for those occasions where I want a Vox AC tone.  At first I thought it would be simple enough to just put it after the fx loop return block on a given preset, but then it occurred to me that it would still be getting fed a signal from my  amp’s preamp.  

 

So in a perfect world I’d be using my amp’s preamp section most of the time, but for certain songs I’d like to be able to disable my amp’s preamp, and insert a Helix amp preamp block in its place.

 

Does Helix have any tricks that would make this possible?

 

You can either:

 

Assign a FS to both the preamp block and the FX Loop block and save the preset with one on and the other off.

This will cause the blocks to toggle, swapping your amp's preamp for the HX preamp.

 

OR

 

You could use snapshots, saving your snapshots with whichever preamp you want on or off in that snapshot.

[charrison_2000]

We can do this using a switcher, in my case a Boss ES-5, but any loop pedal will work.

I run from guitar into the switcher, then in loop 1 I put the amp's preamp by going into the INPUT of the amp and out the EFFECTS SEND back to the switcher.  Then in a subsequent loop, I go into the Helix and back to the switcher.  Then from the switcher to the Effects Return on the amp and out to the cab.

Works great and gives our one-channel amps lots of possibilities:

• Amp -> CAB
• Amp -> Helix Effect -> CAB
• Helix -> CAB

Hope that helps.

[boynigel]

On 5/26/2022 at 10:09 AM, charrison_2000 said:

We can do this using a switcher, in my case a Boss ES-5, but any loop pedal will work.

I run from guitar into the switcher, then in loop 1 I put the amp's preamp by going into the INPUT of the amp and out the EFFECTS SEND back to the switcher.  Then in a subsequent loop, I go into the Helix and back to the switcher.  Then from the switcher to the Effects Return on the amp and out to the cab.

Works great and gives our one-channel amps lots of possibilities:

• Amp -> CAB
• Amp -> Helix Effect -> CAB
• Helix -> CAB

Hope that helps.

I’m a little confused by this due to the wording. Not sure when you’re talking about helix preamp vs physical amp preamp. Also when “looper” do you mean  an A/B switcher? Thanks 

[codamedia]

On 5/25/2022 at 4:49 PM, boynigel said:

So in a perfect world I’d be using my amp’s preamp section most of the time, but for certain songs I’d like to be able to disable my amp’s preamp, and insert a Helix amp preamp block in its place.

 

Does Helix have any tricks that would make this possible?

 

Yes... it is easy with the Helix. It's all built in and there is no need for added gear as suggested earlier.

Simply follow the advice already given by @rd2rk

 

On 5/25/2022 at 9:02 PM, rd2rk said:

You can either:

 

Assign a FS to both the preamp block and the FX Loop block and save the preset with one on and the other off.

This will cause the blocks to toggle, swapping your amp's preamp for the HX preamp.

 

OR

 

You could use snapshots, saving your snapshots with whichever preamp you want on or off in that snapshot.

 

[charrison_2000]

Maybe this is what you are looking for, attached is a diagram I have of the connections using only the Helix.

 

You could use your Amps PreAmp with the Helix's SEND/RETURN 2 and toggle between the VOX Preamp Model.

 

[charrison_2000]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:10 AM, boynigel said:

I’m a little confused by this due to the wording. Not sure when you’re talking about helix preamp vs physical amp preamp. Also when “looper” do you mean  an A/B switcher? Thanks 

 

And to answer this, I meant a Loop Pedal that has footswitchable loops, as I tend to go direct to the amp, instead of going directly into the Helix first.  If you go direct;y into the Helix first, you dont really need this Loop Pedal, as others mentioned.

 

[boynigel]

thanks, I will try doing this when i get home from work today.  On paper I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around how this scenario is removing my guitar's signal from going into my physical amp, and re-routing it after the physical amp's preamp.  Obviously i'll be able to tell by the sound, if the physical amp's preamp section is hitting the Helix's vox preamp.  I trust you guys though, thanks

[boynigel]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:02 PM, rd2rk said:

 

You can either:

 

Assign a FS to both the preamp block and the FX Loop block and save the preset with one on and the other off.

This will cause the blocks to toggle, swapping your amp's preamp for the HX preamp.

 

OR

 

You could use snapshots, saving your snapshots with whichever preamp you want on or off in that snapshot.

if the preset i'm using has an effects loop in it already (for pre and post effects routing), would i have to assign a separate FX loop block for the above scenario?  my thinking being that i would lose my post effects when the existing loop got toggled off.  Hopefully that makes sense.  obviously i could find out through trial and error but i'm writing this from work.

[rd2rk]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:58 AM, boynigel said:

if the preset i'm using has an effects loop in it already (for pre and post effects routing), would i have to assign a separate FX loop block for the above scenario?  my thinking being that i would lose my post effects when the existing loop got toggled off.  Hopefully that makes sense.  obviously i could find out through trial and error but i'm writing this from work.

 

Using Helix in an amp's FX loop for FX only is different from what is typically referred to as 4cm even though both methods use 4 cables.

4cm usually refers to putting the amp's preamp section in a Helix FX Loop. This allows you to place FX like OD/Dist before the amp's preamp and time based FX like delay/reverb after, between the amp's preamp and poweramp. 

 

Wire your rig like this:

 

Guitar>LT Input>LT SEND(INSTRUMENT*)>Amp Input>Amp SEND>LT RETURN(LINE*)>LT L/Mono Out(LINE)>Amp RETURN

 

Place your FX Loop Block AFTER FX that you want before your amp's preamp (before the FX Loop Block) and place other FX after.

You can then place a Helix amp/preamp before the FX Loop Block (after works too, personal preference) and use the toggling method I described.

 

*Since you can't set a single FX Loop to different Send/Return levels I usually use TWO Helix FX Loops - the SEND from Loop 1 set to INSTRUMENT (Global Settings>Ins/Outs) using Send 1 Block and the RETURN from Loop 2 set to LINE and using Return 2 Block. This usually provides the proper levels (INSTRUMENT for the amp input, LINE for the amp's SEND) and cuts down on noise from some amps' FX Loops. While you can try to manually balance the levels within the FX Loop Block itself, using the Global settings is much easier.

When using this method, be sure to set the DRY THRU parameter of the FX Loop SEND Block to OFF (all the way left).

[boynigel]

On 5/27/2022 at 12:53 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Using Helix in an amp's FX loop for FX only is different from what is typically referred to as 4cm even though both methods use 4 cables.

4cm usually refers to putting the amp's preamp section in a Helix FX Loop. This allows you to place FX like OD/Dist before the amp's preamp and time based FX like delay/reverb after, between the amp's preamp and poweramp. 

 

Wire your rig like this:

 

Guitar>LT Input>LT SEND(INSTRUMENT*)>Amp Input>Amp SEND>LT RETURN(LINE*)>LT L/Mono Out(LINE)>Amp RETURN

 

Place your FX Loop Block AFTER FX that you want before your amp's preamp (before the FX Loop Block) and place other FX after.

You can then place a Helix amp/preamp before the FX Loop Block (after works too, personal preference) and use the toggling method I described.

 

*Since you can't set a single FX Loop to different Send/Return levels I usually use TWO Helix FX Loops - the SEND from Loop 1 set to INSTRUMENT (Global Settings>Ins/Outs) using Send 1 Block and the RETURN from Loop 2 set to LINE and using Return 2 Block. This usually provides the proper levels (INSTRUMENT for the amp input, LINE for the amp's SEND) and cuts down on noise from some amps' FX Loops. While you can try to manually balance the levels within the FX Loop Block itself, using the Global settings is much easier.

When using this method, be sure to set the DRY THRU parameter of the FX Loop SEND Block to OFF (all the way left).

Perfect, thank you!