Helix not cutting it in a band?

[Duke_Skellington]

Hi fellow helix users. I am seeking advice from people with a better head for these things than myself. I've had my HX for around 1.5 years now, and am creating what I thought were great presets. I had a jam yesterday, first time in a few years and found that it just wasn't cutting through, and getting tonally swamped by the other guitarist who was just using a jcm900 duo. If i turned it up it was too loud, if i raised the treble it was too reedy. I'm running into a headrush frfr 112

Any suggestions? 

[themetallikid]

Do you have a preset that you can share?   I run direct to FOH for the last 3 years and my last gig was told by the sound guy that he literally ran my channel flat, and didnt have to touch  thing once he got a line level on me.  

 

Not saying my stuff is perfect, but it'd be a good reference to compare what your doing verses me EQ wise, as more than likely its Eqing for a live situation vs what sounds good at home.

[codamedia]

 

On 6/20/2022 at 5:59 AM, Duke_Skellington said:

I'm running into a headrush frfr 112
Any suggestions? 

1. Make sure the contour button is NOT turned on. You must set this for flat response when playing louder and when preparing tones.
2. Lift the headrush off the floor, even just a little. 
3. Prepare your tones at louder volumes... (more on this later)

On 6/20/2022 at 5:59 AM, Duke_Skellington said:

I've had my HX for around 1.5 years now, and am creating what I thought were great presets. I had a jam yesterday, first time in a few years and found that it just wasn't cutting through, and getting tonally swamped by the other guitarist who was just using a jcm900 duo. If i turned it up it was too loud, if i raised the treble it was too reedy.

 

When you create your tones at home... you are creating them at lower volumes and introducing the "Fletcher Munson Curve" into your sound. The result is always the same.... you think you create a great tone but when you turn up your tones get boomy & thin and you can't hear them. 

1. Turn down the highs
2. Turn down the lows (possibly a fair amount)
3. Turn up the mids
4. note: steps 1 - 3 happens naturally when you prepare tones at louder volumes. 

At lower volumes the tone might appear to sound small & lifeless... but as you turn up, it will sound bigger and cut through a mix. 

[theElevators]

The main thing about "not cutting it" is the feel on stage.   When your sound is coming out of a hefty guitar speaker, it sounds nice and powerful and familiar.  The same cannot be said about having your sound coming out of an FRFR, or a wedge monitor.  To me those sound like your sound is coming from far away, like it's played on the stereo. 

 

If you don't feel like you have enough b*lls on stage, you start picking harder, and not having a good time. 

 

 

 

My solution to your problems is to use an actual guitar speaker.  My highly recommended approach is to take your sound out of your Helix exactly as is, run it through a power amp and into a 1x12 speaker.  To me it's the perfect amount of oomf, and clarity.  I don't bother with having any IRs, disabling/enabling them for FOH or personal mix... it all sounds passable... The simpler, the better. 

 

My power amp of choice is Mooer Baby Bomb.  I bought it on a whim and cannot be happier. 

 

Here's an example of what my cover band sounds like.  In this recording it's just my guitar -> Helix -> Mooer Baby Bomb -> Orange 112 cab.  This is a small bar gig.  Normally, my sound goes to the FOH in stereo, as I explained.  There was no need here, because it's a tiny space. 

 

 

cheers.

 

[Duke_Skellington]

Thanks for your help guys, Ive tried these things and it really has made a BIG difference! I am starting to wonder if a powercab woukd just sound better, there isn't a lot of positive feedback about headrush cabs. But in the meantime, it's sounding like something I can work with, even be happy with. You guys rock! 

[Duke_Skellington]

On 9/5/2019 at 12:23 AM, DunedinDragon said:

 

Well, that's because 2.71 didn't incorporate a big architectural change in the core Helix code that is the hallmark of what 2.8 is all about.  If you compare the release notes and installation instructions for 2.7 and 2.8 you'll see a VAST difference in the process.  You'll also see a lot of warnings regarding the importance of making sure you have the correct version of HX Edit for 2.8.

But given your question I'll give you one back.  Why is it that the people on this forum with TONS of posts and experience are never the ones encountering problems?  I installed 2.81 on both of my Helix floor units without any problems.  But in spite of my long history with the Helix, I was very diligent in reading through the release notes beforehand and following them very precisely as I've learned to do over the years.  There were clearly some differences in the process I've become used to over the last several upgrades, but I was ready for it and understood what I needed to do and why.  The only issue I ran into was when I took the one unit I'd upgraded which is my studio unit and plugged it into the other computer I use for my live performance setup that was running HX Edit 2.70 and HX Edit couldn't connect to the updated unit.  It just took a couple of minutes to troubleshoot that the Helix device driver for the laptop running HX Edit 2.70 was unable to be launched by the 2.81 Helix when it was plugged in.  No surprise there.  But that's why if you deviate at all from the prescribed process, particularly in the installation of HX Edit which installs all the appropriate computer software and the appropriate device driver you'll need for upgrading, you're going to get glitches.  And if you try to run Lin6 Updater with HXEdit still running, things won't go smoothly because the device driver will be in use.  These are all things mentioned in the release notes, but easily overlooked.

 

 

On 6/21/2022 at 3:16 PM, theElevators said:

The main thing about "not cutting it" is the feel on stage.   When your sound is coming out of a hefty guitar speaker, it sounds nice and powerful and familiar.  The same cannot be said about having your sound coming out of an FRFR, or a wedge monitor.  To me those sound like your sound is coming from far away, like it's played on the stereo. 

 

If you don't feel like you have enough b*lls on stage, you start picking harder, and not having a good time. 

 

 

 

My solution to your problems is to use an actual guitar speaker.  My highly recommended approach is to take your sound out of your Helix exactly as is, run it through a power amp and into a 1x12 speaker.  To me it's the perfect amount of oomf, and clarity.  I don't bother with having any IRs, disabling/enabling them for FOH or personal mix... it all sounds passable... The simpler, the better. 

 

My power amp of choice is Mooer Baby Bomb.  I bought it on a whim and cannot be happier. 

 

Here's an example of what my cover band sounds like.  In this recording it's just my guitar -> Helix -> Mooer Baby Bomb -> Orange 112 cab.  This is a small bar gig.  Normally, my sound goes to the FOH in stereo, as I explained.  There was no need here, because it's a tiny space. 

 

 

cheers.

 

Yeah that sounds great man.  Definitely worth trying! I've not heard this technique exactly mentioned before, it works well. Thanks! 

[DunedinDragon]

 

On 6/20/2022 at 7:45 AM, themetallikid said:

Do you have a preset that you can share?   I run direct to FOH for the last 3 years and my last gig was told by the sound guy that he literally ran my channel flat, and didnt have to touch  thing once he got a line level on me.  

 

Not saying my stuff is perfect, but it'd be a good reference to compare what your doing verses me EQ wise, as more than likely its Eqing for a live situation vs what sounds good at home.

 

A couple of things worth mentioning here because you really didn't go into the situation you play in.

It's very possible to get a satisfying and great tone from either a real cabinet or from a powered speaker.  As themetalkid mentioned above, he gets great results simply going direct to the PA which is, in effect, going to FRFR style powered speakers.  But I'm sure if you asked him how easy that journey was, he would be the first to admit it took a while to master it.  But there are more than enough threads on this topic to help in understanding the differences.  What I want to point out is the "why bother" part of it.  That really comes down to how you intend to be generally be using your Helix.

Using a traditional cabinet is very easy but becomes a little more problematic if you play in larger situations in which all instrument go through the PA.  When playing alone or jamming they sound on stage is the sound.  But to take that sound into a PA it will either have to be mic'd or go direct to the mixing board and may not easily translate to the sound you're getting from the cabinet.  There are a lot of various configuration tricks for how to do this successfully, but it will always add complexity to your setup and to the way you build your presets.

Personally I'm so used to dialing in my presets to be "PA friendly" that I don't really think about it much, I just do it and can do it pretty quickly.  But it really is dependent upon you having a rehearsal space where you can dial it in effectively and develop an ear for achieving the "live studio sound" that goes direct to the mixing board.  I live alone in my own house so volume isn't an issue so I have a permanent rehearsal space which simulates a live PA.  My Helix is plugged into a mixer which is then plugged into my Yamaha DXR12 speaker which is mounted about chest height and I typically stand about 6 feet away from the speaker to really get an understanding of how it will sound live.  I'm also constantly moving my position relative to that speaker to ensure my sound is consistent.  I probably play at around 85 to 90db which isn't really all that loud, but is loud enough to overcome any Fletcher-Munson effects, and I alway play against a mix with drums and other instruments.  This configuration also allows me to very precisely gain stage and equalize the volumes on all of my presets so they're ready to simply plug directly into any PA and will be consistent for the entire performance.  The "why do I do this" is really a result of understanding that I would rather put in the work at home on my schedule than have to do it when I show up to the performance which is typically every week.  That's the point where I don't want to be wasting any time.

I don't fault anyone for doing things differently because they have to be happy with their situation.  And I'm the first to admit I'm a bit overboard when it comes to my preparation.  But for me it pays off week after week through all different changes in band personnel across 6 or 7 years now, and all performance situations so that's all I can ask for.

[themetallikid]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:42 AM, DunedinDragon said:

 

 

A couple of things worth mentioning here because you really didn't go into the situation you play in.

It's very possible to get a satisfying and great tone from either a real cabinet or from a powered speaker.  As themetalkid mentioned above, he gets great results simply going direct to the PA which is, in effect, going to FRFR style powered speakers.  But I'm sure if you asked him how easy that journey was, he would be the first to admit it took a while to master it.  But there are more than enough threads on this topic to help in understanding the differences.  What I want to point out is the "why bother" part of it.  That really comes down to how you intend to be generally be using your Helix.

Using a traditional cabinet is very easy but becomes a little more problematic if you play in larger situations in which all instrument go through the PA.  When playing alone or jamming they sound on stage is the sound.  But to take that sound into a PA it will either have to be mic'd or go direct to the mixing board and may not easily translate to the sound you're getting from the cabinet.  There are a lot of various configuration tricks for how to do this successfully, but it will always add complexity to your setup and to the way you build your presets.

Personally I'm so used to dialing in my presets to be "PA friendly" that I don't really think about it much, I just do it and can do it pretty quickly.  But it really is dependent upon you having a rehearsal space where you can dial it in effectively and develop an ear for achieving the "live studio sound" that goes direct to the mixing board.  I live alone in my own house so volume isn't an issue so I have a permanent rehearsal space which simulates a live PA.  My Helix is plugged into a mixer which is then plugged into my Yamaha DXR12 speaker which is mounted about chest height and I typically stand about 6 feet away from the speaker to really get an understanding of how it will sound live.  I'm also constantly moving my position relative to that speaker to ensure my sound is consistent.  I probably play at around 85 to 90db which isn't really all that loud, but is loud enough to overcome any Fletcher-Munson effects, and I alway play against a mix with drums and other instruments.  This configuration also allows me to very precisely gain stage and equalize the volumes on all of my presets so they're ready to simply plug directly into any PA and will be consistent for the entire performance.  The "why do I do this" is really a result of understanding that I would rather put in the work at home on my schedule than have to do it when I show up to the performance which is typically every week.  That's the point where I don't want to be wasting any time.

I don't fault anyone for doing things differently because they have to be happy with their situation.  And I'm the first to admit I'm a bit overboard when it comes to my preparation.  But for me it pays off week after week through all different changes in band personnel across 6 or 7 years now, and all performance situations so that's all I can ask for.

I 100% agree with what your posting.   For me, I'm pretty similar with designing presets and them transferring to FOH.  The biggest part, to me, is to know your monitoring situation, and how that compares to the FOH situation.  For example, my headphones are a bit boomy or muffled on the high end.  If I dial things in to sound good in headphones then its usually pretty thin at FOH for the show.  I've learned to accept that if I'm just slightly not happy with the clarity in my sound through headphones, it should translate well to FOH.

[brue58ski]

Others can attest to this. I am only basing it on what I've read. If you're stuck in a position where you can't spend time to correct things, maybe using the Global EQ and boosting the mids would help. That's where most of the guitar's "information" is and maybe by moving the peak frequency you maybe can adjust it so it fits with the other guitar player. It would be quick. Just a thought. No real world experience with this. Can anyone attest to whether this is a viable solution?

[themetallikid]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:12 AM, brue58ski said:

Others can attest to this. I am only basing it on what I've read. If you're stuck in a position where you can't spend time to correct things, maybe using the Global EQ and boosting the mids would help. That's where most of the guitar's "information" is and maybe by moving the peak frequency you maybe can adjust it so it fits with the other guitar player. It would be quick. Just a thought. No real world experience with this. Can anyone attest to whether this is a viable solution?

I could see this as a first stop fix to give you an idea of what to tweak when you do have time.  If you boost +6db in the mids, and then sweep the range to find where it sits right.  I'd then make note of that boost and frequency you settled on.  Maybe you just need to raise the mids in the amp block or even adding a Parametric EQ between Amp/Cab (or post cab if you use the combined block) to apply that Global EQ into each preset then.   

 

I would then zero out the global eq and next practice repeat it again if its still not quite there.  Thats just how you learn about EQ and what works.  

 

 

I did this at practice on Monday.  New amp/IR/effects combos in my presets and I over compensated for my headphones.  Had to adjust using the global EQ at practice to make it tolerable.  When I hook it up tonight, I have a reference of what I need to add to all my presets to get them where I'm happy.