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Reverb IR loader for Bricasti etc


acousticglue
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Cab IR's are measured in milliseconds, and not many milliseconds... Reverb IR's start at several seconds long. 

I honestly don't believe the Helix has enough space or resources for those.

 

But - it never hurts to ask.... over at ideascale. 

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It's actually quite astonishing that not a single actual modeler (not even the super-computer-alike Axe FX III) is capable of dealing with longer IRs. Especially given that the (now unfortunately discontinued) EPSI Logidy did that several years ago already. And also given, that, say, my 2008 Macbook could already run quite a whole bunch of them simultaneously.

That would open up a whole new world in terms of sound design (not only for plain reverbs).

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I guess the problem isnt to add a reverb iR algo/block (I mean, the glorious lexicon L480 memory dump was just less than 60 seconds total of samples, and Helix has that sample memory available for the looper), but the fact Helix wouldnt have enough ROM to store that stuff.

 

On paper, in 2022, a reverb convolver/algo is extremely cheap to do, but you need to design that stuff before to ship the units to the world..:P

 

 

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On 9/11/2022 at 8:43 PM, PierM said:

but the fact Helix wouldnt have enough ROM to store that stuff.

 

I would not expect any current modeler to be updated with such a feature, but I'd expect some new versions to feature longer IR loading. I mean, the entire Axe FX III line was released over a decade after IRs became one of the most common things in software reverb land.

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I'm no expert on convolution reverbs, but I do use them and encounter them all the time when using sampled instrument libraries in my DAW and that tells me something about the difference in how they must be processed compared to a modeled instrument.  A modeled instrument is a stream of math computations whereas a sampled instrument is pretty much a fully formed slice of audio that can easily be overlayed  with another sample.  That may be why you don't see them in modelers but you see them everywhere in samplers and it all comes down to the main issue modelers are always battling which is avoiding latency.

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On 9/12/2022 at 10:45 AM, DunedinDragon said:

That may be why you don't see them in modelers but you see them everywhere in samplers and it all comes down to the main issue modelers are always battling which is avoiding latency.

 

No, you don't see them in samplers - at least not in hardware samplers (and in the end it's hardware we're talking about). But then, there's hardly much hardware samplers around anymore anyway (at least not in the form of dedicated samplers, they're usually embedded in multi purpose units or in highly specialized things).

And as far as latency is concerned, there's zero latency IR reverbs, very well capable of processing things within the set buffer size of your DAW.

Having said that, given a proper audio interface, I can play through IRs with as little latency as what most hardware modelers deliver. An interface such as an RME Babyface allows for roundtrip latencies of roughly 3.x milliseconds, pretty much the same ballpark as most modelers.

Add to this that in most cases, a little extra latency for just the reverbed part of the signal shouldn't matter much at all, usually you set some predelay anyway.

None of all that should be an issue.

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I believe the point here is always the same; market demands.

 

Convolve reverbs always been more of a studio thing than a live performance tool, partially because they were huge, heavy and bloody expensive and less practical for adjustments on the fly...but also because the room convolution is more a studio necessity than performing live (to give a score a very specific room ambiance), which has to face real rooms every time you play in a different place. If you use a 3.4sec algo reverb in a song, you can reduce it on the fly if that club has bad acoustic and early reflections coming from concrete walls...if you use a 3.4 convolution, that will require more work. Today I see there is a bit more interest on the performer's market, but still I feel we are a niche of a niche, so - even it's way cheaper to do convolve reverbs than 30 years ago - it has a cost in terms of design, hardware (they eat some DSP), coding and production. It would be worth it for Line 6? Not sure, but I'd really love to have such feature onboard, especially for non guitar works. We'll see.

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On 9/12/2022 at 1:23 PM, PierM said:

Convolve reverbs always been more of a studio thing than a live performance tool, partially because they were huge, heavy and bloody expensive

 

Huh? IR-based reverbs are a computer-thing almost exclusively. In fact, the only hardware box I'm aware of is the Sony DRE-S777 (and then the Logidy Epsi, which had a pretty limited feature set and was likely never used in any studio or whatsoever).

So they're far away from being either huge, heavy or bloody expensive. Some lines of code, sometimes even available for free (or coming with your host).

 

On 9/12/2022 at 1:23 PM, PierM said:

f you use a 3.4sec algo reverb in a song, you can reduce it on the fly if that club has bad acoustic and early reflections coming from concrete walls...if you use a 3.4 convolution, that will require more work.

 

No. You can easily manipulate the reverb tail by using an envelope. Does a pretty convincing job. Besides, it's not that important anyway, pretty much nobody adjusts their reverb tails on the fly in a modeler - especially not in the Helix as you'd have to do it for each and every preset using reverb.

 

Apart from all that, for me the truly interesting thing would be to use IRs outside of the plain reverb realm. There's things you can do almos no reverb unit is capable of. And it's a big pile of fun to create some wild IRs. I'll post an example...

 

On 9/12/2022 at 1:23 PM, PierM said:

even it's way cheaper to do convolve reverbs than 30 years ago

 

Well, 30 years ago you were not using "convolve reverbs". They simply didn't exist.

Sorry, but it seems you're mixing up something here.

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Sorry I terribly explained what I meant, that's why I used convolve and convolution differently (, but I admit was foggy as hell.

 

I meant that convolution reverbs are today being used like algos where used 30 years ago with studio reverbs, as L480, 224 etc etc.. and that's also why many studios are still today convolving those reverbs into modern plugins.

 

My point was that you don't often see guitarists on stage using convolution plugins, so maybe L6 (and other guitar pedal manufacturers) aren't really into it.

 

 

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On 9/12/2022 at 3:18 PM, PierM said:

My point was that you don't often see guitarists on stage using convolution plugins

 

That's simply because you'd have to bring a laptop with you to do so. Something not many people like too much (myself included, even if I had done so already and am still sort of tempted).

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On 9/12/2022 at 3:37 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

That's simply because you'd have to bring a laptop with you to do so. Something not many people like too much (myself included, even if I had done so already and am still sort of tempted).

 

Yeah it can be true.

 

I do use an iPad Pro running Altispace, always connected to helix via USB audio, and it can do miracles, especially for non guitar stuff (at least for my needs).

 

image.jpeg.bc4b87820a0c1d33e6864fdb3482e656.jpeg

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I guess it was best I posted this here first....yeah wasnt sure if do-able but would suffice many players for the reverb they want, not all of em but some. Cabs and reverb IRs would have people able to dump onto system ones they want and go. I play only into PC and use Reverberatex64 v2 many times for my reverb on a Reaper DAW track/.

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On 9/12/2022 at 9:37 AM, SaschaFranck said:

That's simply because you'd have to bring a laptop with you to do so. Something not many people like too much (myself included, even if I had done so already and am still sort of tempted).

Wasn't that the same point I was making about using convolution reverbs commonly in samplers in my DAW (which of course would be on a computer)???  Have we come full circle yet?

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On 9/12/2022 at 5:37 PM, DunedinDragon said:

 

Wasn't that the same point I was making about using convolution reverbs commonly in samplers in my DAW (which of course would be on a computer)???  Have we come full circle yet?

 

Reverbs can be either done with algos as with convolution. That's a similar difference you can see in Helix modeling, between the Helix Cab (algo with EQs and math), and Helix IRs (dynamic convolution of the signal function shaped over impulse function). It's a fact that reverb algos are mostly used in guitar pedals and racks, while convolution reverbs are mostly used in studio and DAW. Same tech can be used to shape a guitar signal into a different instrument voice, with great results.

 

We are wondering why nobody yet has seriously implemented convolution on guitar pedals market. My POV is because there is not enough market demand...yet, to justify the investments. 

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My sense: when producing music (studio, DAW) pristine reverb is essential. When playing guitar at gigs (especially in rooms with poor acoustics) the quality of the reverb is not as important, and "good enough" is usually "good enough." I find the selection and quality of reverbs in Helix to be more than adequate for playing guitar. For guitar tracks in the studio, however, I rely on good plug-ins such as LiquidSonic's Tai Chi and Seventh Heaven (Bricasti emulation).

 

FYI, from the interweb: "The Bricasti M7 is running six dual-core Analog Devices Blackfin ADSP-BF561 processors that run at 600MHz and have a combined performance of 14400 MMACs (2400 per processor)."

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On 9/12/2022 at 6:22 PM, soundog said:

I find the selection and quality of reverbs in Helix to be more than adequate for playing guitar.

 

As far as it comes to plain reverbs, most certainly. But as said, there's a whole new world of sound design within the IR realm, going *way* beyond any typical reverbs.

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I also use Liquidsonics on PC, point is, having onboard saves processor of computer when available. I mean I have Source Audio Ventris too. Doesn't keep me from wanting IR loader for Reverb. There might be particular ones we want onboard.

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