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Best practice for grabbing IRs from other modellers?


markwesse
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What I mean i, I used guitar rig for years; one of the reasons is the brilliant control room ie so fast and such good sound to create cabs

You can't have everything so I want to grab some of my favourite cab setups and copy the irs into helix

 

Has any got a refined method to do this they might like to share? And Ill buy you a coffee or beer :-)

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The cabs in GR are not the same as IRs, They are similar to the Helix cabs. You can't extract them from GR to use in Helix.

Even if you could, they would not sound the same with Helix amps.

If you use the Helix Dual Cab Block you can do pretty much the same thing in Helix as Control Room does, though limited to two cabs/mics..

You have lots of cabs and mics to choose from. You can't control mic placement on the cones as you can in Control Room Pro, but you can control distance, high/low cuts, mix level and to some extent room ambience with the "early reflections" parameter. 

I recommend York IRs if you really can't stand the Helix cabs, but before you start spending money on IRs, wait for v3.2.

There MIGHT be something new coming with cabs.

In the meantime, keep in mind that cabs/IRs are no more than fancy EQs. Try a Parametric EQ to fine tune the Cab.

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Guitar Rig sounds garbage to me these days, and I was used to love it back in the days.

 

Your ears probably needs to embrace and trust new sounds. If you are trying to make the Helix sounding like Guitar Rig, just stick with Guitar Rig, as it will never happen. ;)

 

Brain tends to "believe" things we know better, are better.

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On 9/30/2022 at 5:59 PM, rd2rk said:

The cabs in GR are not the same as IRs, They are similar to the Helix cabs. You can't extract them from GR to use in Helix.

Even if you could, they would not sound the same with Helix amps.

If you use the Helix Dual Cab Block you can do pretty much the same thing in Helix as Control Room does, though limited to two cabs/mics..

You have lots of cabs and mics to choose from. You can't control mic placement on the cones as you can in Control Room Pro, but you can control distance, high/low cuts, mix level and to some extent room ambience with the "early reflections" parameter. 

I recommend York IRs if you really can't stand the Helix cabs, but before you start spending money on IRs, wait for v3.2.

There MIGHT be something new coming with cabs.

In the meantime, keep in mind that cabs/IRs are no more than fancy EQs. Try a Parametric EQ to fine tune the Cab.

Hmm I have to disagree; an impulse response done properly is doing far more than eq; eq is static, IR includes time capture. Sure it can easily do freq domain but its the time domain that is equally important to cabs. Non linearities are the issue.

I was simply hoping to replicate (close enough) what I hear in the control room (real) when I mic up.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 6:43 PM, PierM said:

our ears probably needs to embrace and trust new sounds.

For sure; thats why Im here but its more than sound; its feel. What does it elicit in playing/emotion.

 

Im using a lot of bits and pieces atm to just put together 3 main sounds (plus variance of that preset) 

The problem is, just because something is new, doesnt mean its better ;-) Was just hoping that could all be done in the helix. They def got the IO right (although you cant loop out to usb without assigning a path which is weird) but it really is good.

 

Sure some of grig cabs totally suck but the ui of CR and speed as to dialling in sounds instead of blind tweaking is amazing and Im not complaining about helix amps etc, I quite like the Fender twin vib model...its not particularly close to the real thing but its sounds great....its just some of the other stuff isnt.

A 4x12 split stack with 121 on each side (L/R pan); 1/cone edge, 1/cap edges with a frequency key on each channel is so good and a go to (in many studios).

If its in a dig realm already, then why wouldnt you use it?

 

Can I ask the question with respect; have you ever spent a lot of time in a studio, micing up cabs etc and even eg used ribbon mics on them? 

Do you gig much using monitor levels > 87db and FOH > 1000w?

Could you do a quick clip for us to listen to your fav preset that presents a multi mic cab? That would be cool

 

Cheers

 

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On 9/30/2022 at 2:39 PM, markwesse said:

Hmm I have to disagree; an impulse response done properly is doing far more than eq; eq is static, IR includes time capture. Sure it can easily do freq domain but its the time domain that is equally important to cabs. Non linearities are the issue.

I was simply hoping to replicate (close enough) what I hear in the control room (real) when I mic up.

 

 

 

It's an oversimplification to say that an IR is JUST an EQ, but it's a much more egregious exageration to say an IR is FAR more than an EQ. 

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On 10/1/2022 at 6:53 AM, Kilrahi said:

 

It's an oversimplification to say that an IR is JUST an EQ, but it's a much more egregious exageration to say an IR is FAR more than an EQ. 

Sure

But you are joking right; comparing freq with time?

Slapping a parametric on a time domain issue isnt exactly helpful information to others reading. The er/slap, rear bleed of an f8 picking up all of that with phase anomaly affecting over time will never be addressed with eq. Its about the space surrounding an object that s important to human spatial cueing which is what IR in this application is all about.

I somehow think we are assuming different things here...its eq over time and spatial cue all in one...yes it is far more than an eq unless you are using singl sample DIRAC for eq purposes...unless Im missing something here?

 

I digress...just looking for someone who is well schooled in the art of IR capture in context of Helix and willing to share insights?

I can work it out from that point and ill be sure to share back here with actual AB samples whether its a failure or not and help others on the journey.

 

 

 

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On 9/30/2022 at 3:12 PM, markwesse said:

Sure

But you are joking right; comparing freq with time?

Slapping a parametric on a time domain issue isnt exactly helpful information to others reading. The er/slap, rear bleed of an f8 picking up all of that with phase anomaly affecting over time will never be addressed with eq. Its about the space surrounding an object that s important to human spatial cueing which is what IR in this application is all about.

I somehow think we are assuming different things here...its eq over time and spatial cue all in one...yes it is far more than an eq unless you are using singl sample DIRAC for eq purposes...unless Im missing something here?

 

I digress...just looking for someone who is well schooled in the art of IR capture in context of Helix and willing to share insights?

I can work it out from that point and ill be sure to share back here with actual AB samples whether its a failure or not and help others on the journey.

 

 

 

 

I mean, you're right we're def getting way off topic here - but @rd2rk's original claim was that an EQ is the perfect sculpting choice to fix imperfections in an IR. While they did call an IR a "fancy" EQ, their more important point wasn't suggesting an EQ as a substitute but rather as a subtle tone shaping technique after applying an IR of choice that gets you close to where you want to be.  I think that's a very reasonable and valid claim and impossible to deny. 

 

However, if we want to get in deeper and REAL - with me going into what is largely "no man's land" of lonely opinions - yes, I think the "time" aspect of an IR is extremely overrated. It's the frequency aspect of it that is far more vital. I'm right there with @craiganderton's advice  (amazing book by the way man - worth the price of admission several times over - and just to be clear the only point I'm saying we would for sure agree on is that an EQ can be used as a reasonable substitute, I'm not trying to claim you agree on the time aspect being "overrated") in the book of Helix suggestions that in a pinch a well sculpted and crafted EQ can absolutely substitute for a cab if you are short on DSP and need a quick and dirty fix. It honestly works very, very well. Better than common sense would say it has any right to, particularly in 2022 where some people would hold the right IR and its sonic power above even Jesus. 

 

Now, don't misinterpret me there either. If I have a choice, and plenty of processing power, I'm always going to choose an IR cab over an EQ, but IRs and EQs are very closely related to each other. 

 

Still, what matters is what you enjoy and like, so if my take on things ever sounds like hot garbage to you, absolutely, ignore it and do what sounds good to you. 

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On 9/30/2022 at 10:39 PM, markwesse said:

Hmm I have to disagree; an impulse response done properly is doing far more than eq; eq is static, IR includes time capture. Sure it can easily do freq domain but its the time domain that is equally important to cabs. Non linearities are the issue.

 

Both EQ and Impulse are LINEAR as their response wont change with a variation of the incoming signal. That is the convolution, which is not the IR itself, as a finished product. That's like comparing real time physics with a LookUp Table array.

 

Convolution is what makes the difference, especially for big cabs and/or non focused MIC positions. That is what capture the high frequency interference produced by sound waves traveling inside the cab, in relationship with the room and mic response.

 

But again, EQ and IR are both LINEAR, and there is no dynamics involved in any way.


You can mimic a focused IR with a simple param EQ, and make them virtually identic.

 

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On 9/30/2022 at 2:06 AM, markwesse said:

What I mean i, I used guitar rig for years; one of the reasons is the brilliant control room ie so fast and such good sound to create cabs

You can't have everything so I want to grab some of my favourite cab setups and copy the irs into helix

 

Has any got a refined method to do this they might like to share? And Ill buy you a coffee or beer :-)

 

If a sim has a cab sound you’d love to use with Helix, it’s not only possible—it’s easy. The process requires a DAW, and sending an impulse (a short audio file) into the virtual cab you want to capture.

 

After loading the impulse into a DAW’s audio track, insert the cab whose impulse response you want to capture as an effect for that track. Bypass all amps and effects—you want only the cab to process the impulse. Render the track, and export it as a WAV file. Then you can load this into an IR block.

 

That’s the short form, The Big Book of Helix Tips and Tricks eBook goes into the details. The download for the book also includes impulse files in mono and stereo at various sample rates that you can use with your DAW. The process for different DAWs is similar, but there are specific examples for Studio One, Pro Tools, and Ableton Live.

 

So...you don't have to buy me a coffee or a beer, just buy the book :)

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On 9/30/2022 at 1:06 AM, markwesse said:

What I mean i, I used guitar rig for years; one of the reasons is the brilliant control room ie so fast and such good sound to create cabs

You can't have everything so I want to grab some of my favourite cab setups and copy the irs into helix

 

Has any got a refined method to do this they might like to share? And Ill buy you a coffee or beer :-)

 

Trying to get back to your original question - I've never created IRs. It's not my thing. I'd rather fiddle with tools others make. 

 

Nevertheless, while I was reading back up on EQs as cabs after our discussion I happened to notice Craig Anderton's book of Helix tips (available at Sweetwater) has a section on page 270 called, "Create Cab Impulse Responses from Other Cab Sims" and describes the process as "easy." I'd highly reccomend you grab the book for tons of reasons - and maybe that section does exactly what you want. It even includes the appropriate sized impulse responses to use in your DAW to capture the cab you want, and step by step instructions. Pretty awesome.  You'll also need a DAW. If you happen to not have one, Reaper is cheap and/or free and works great. 

 

Edit: Looks like Craig beat me to it. Either way, I highly reccomend you buy the book. 

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Baha...thanks Craig...

On 10/1/2022 at 8:31 AM, craiganderton said:

So...you don't have to buy me a coffee or a beer, just buy the book :)

Ok the book...sounds good and I did mean the comments about your inputs at SOS...way way back. I spent a lot of money on those all sitting in a corner now :-)

EDIT: Had a look at some of your articles; to be clear, for sure, close mic eq for IR is clear...but Im definitely talking about the sound package ie drum kit vs a snare. In other words room response in terms of space cue is an important part of the IR for me...is this excluded from the term IR in helix?

 

On 10/1/2022 at 7:34 AM, Kilrahi said:

Still, what matters is what you enjoy and like

 

Cool, Yep at the end of the day that its hey? I was waffling about time domain because I hear so many recordings now that are close mic, no space which is unfortunately a missing element that is so helpful in create good mixers; eq itself doesnt fix this, space does eg sit 4m out from a string quartet (acoustically)...those ms cues are so helpful and thats my aim...sure eq is a big part of the cab but front to back is prob more what Im looking for especially for cleaner tones.

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On 10/1/2022 at 7:54 AM, PierM said:

 

Both EQ and Impulse are LINEAR as their response wont change with a variation of the incoming signal. That is the convolution, which is not the IR itself, as a finished product. That's like comparing real time physics with a LookUp Table array.

 

Convolution is what makes the difference, especially for big cabs and/or non focused MIC positions. That is what capture the high frequency interference produced by sound waves traveling inside the cab, in relationship with the room and mic response.

 

But again, EQ and IR are both LINEAR, and there is no dynamics involved in any way.


You can mimic a focused IR with a simple param EQ, and make them virtually identic.

 

Ok IR is a convolution right?

Is there any dynamics involved...I agree...no! (although the Liquid Channel which I still have uses a serious convolution engine tricks to get some pretty decent dynamics)

Is it an EQ...of course...

Can an IR be longer than a single sample? Yes

Therefore can it apply the reverberant captured space, er etc of course...thats what Im looking for...as in other post...the front to back cues as well as eq...not just how the speaker acted as a filter.

So please explain to me...re the envelope of reverberation...it changes along time eg ER will reflect the diffusion and absorption characteristics of the initial hit and then the other materials impart their sonic signature later in the envelope, filtering out according the the RT60...can be seen  in a waterfall plot when measuring rooms and this can be applied via convolution so Im not actually able to get what you are saying...???
So are you saying an IR does not carry time domain dimension re acoustic space? Your answer is not clear to me re context...but prob doesnt matter anyway...I do appreciate your input but if there is an IR capture process already documented in the book...I think Im all set :-) Whether for disaster or resolution.

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On 10/1/2022 at 8:38 AM, Kilrahi said:

You'll also need a DAW. If you happen to not have one, Reaper is cheap and/or free and works great. 

Reaper certainly looks good and would be my first choice...if...I hadnt been using Cubase since v1.0 on atari...a little hard to change now hehe and I program python/remote scripts for OEM/Ableton so I use both of those depending - Live for live, then Cubase for the studio

 

I do appreciate Dan worrals view but pretty much all of those special little features just need studio rack (free) now that it does vsts as well (just an encouragement now for those on other daws as those phase related eg delta fader etc can be handled as a capsule within the plug)

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Ok so I have another post on TS808

Has anyone done an IR of eg a piece of their own hardware and used it in lieu of ie as an IR

I realise this is only a snapshot but in the case of the TS808, I use max 3 settings.

 

Would be interesting to hear of others using IR not just for cabs etc

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On 9/30/2022 at 6:59 PM, markwesse said:

Ok so I have another post on TS808

Has anyone done an IR of eg a piece of their own hardware and used it in lieu of ie as an IR

I realise this is only a snapshot but in the case of the TS808, I use max 3 settings.

 

Would be interesting to hear of others using IR not just for cabs etc

 

My understanding is it's doable to capture a lot of the frequencies, but an IR can't mimic distortion. So it'd be like the cleanest Tubescreamer you'd ever heard in your life. 

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On 10/1/2022 at 8:31 AM, craiganderton said:

That’s the short form

Thanks @craiganderton

That was a good read...well paced and lots of nuggets.

 

I didnt read much of the multi band section as Im a TRIAD fan and do all my mband stuff there (the mband version of BYOME) as the modulation is crazy and so easy...(not to mention Helix Native is a complete cpu hog even on i7 127k) but I will give it a peruse when I get some time...but I really just use 3 amp setups and with some efx there is already more than a great palette (well as soon as I can port to helix anyway)

The IR process is super simple and its a good starting point to get me going...ie try the old school ones Im use to

 

Cheers

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On 9/30/2022 at 7:59 PM, markwesse said:

Would be interesting to hear of others using IR not just for cabs etc

 

I created IR's from my Fishman Aura and JD Aura. That saves me from dragging two extra hardware boxes to a gig. I also captured the 4 settings from my old Rockman X100. I still have to load up a Marshall (or similar) and some effects... but when I apply one of those IR's the tone gets recognizable immediately. I also captured some cab sims such as the Palmer PDI-03 and the Mesa Cab Clone. Hardware sims sound different than a normal CAB IR's since there is no microphone involved... but when you make an IR from them, they retain that tone. 

 

Keep in mind that effects impart tonal color beyond the effect itself. Your question about the TS808 is a great example. Even though you can't capture the overdrive from the tube screamer, you can capture the tonal quality of that effect.... the proverbial "mid hump". The same thing applies to the Rockman IR's I created and would also apply to something like a compressor that imparts "magic" on your sound. It won't capture the compression, but it captures the tone of it. 

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Interesting discussion, for sure. My main use for EQ cabs is when I want two cabs in HX Stomp, and there's only enough DSP for one. So EQ makes it possible to do parallel paths.

 

Of course everything is subjective and everyone has their own desires of what an amp should sound like. I feel the sound consists of what comes out of the cab, what happens in a room, and your position in the room. More specifically, if you're playing guitar in a room, you're almost certainly moving around. So the frequencies and phase shifts your ear experiences are constantly shifting.

 

In the CA-X amps I designed for Sonar, a big part of the sound was extremely subtle chorusing - not as an effect, but just to introduce constantly shifting, sublimiinal phase shifts and response anomalies that move over time. I think that's an important time element that's often overlooked, and is why some people think the sound of an amp sim is "missing something" if they're listening over headphones, or to studio monitors while sitting down, in the studio.

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On 10/2/2022 at 3:12 AM, craiganderton said:

So the frequencies and phase shifts your ear experiences are constantly shifting.

Exactly...when I was first starting out...I progressed to buying 2 fender rhodes cabs because I had no money and they were on clearance so I just worked with what I had.

Initially that was TS808, ds1 etc into a dm1000 and then into an ibanez stereo chorus which fed the fender boxes. The chorus was super subtle but with delay etc and the 808 plus painstakingly remembering the knob positions by ear, that phase shift for me was more like a super emphasised echoing in a small valley which has that swirly kind of thing going on. Sounds crazy but before that, I actually lived on the top of a small mountain out of town and we would jam their, crank the guitar and the echoes throughout the valley is actually what I was trying to emulate (I also do a lot of FOH and come to think of it...that does a similar thing with volume)

 

Thats part of what I mean about 'space'. Thats why as mentioned, when I listen to a track, part of the psycho acoustic cueing ie placing you into a believable space is just so important for connection...whether its in a room or a valley or a cave; its so magnifies the performance and sounds so much bigger imho

Thats why close mic mono vs ms stereo is chalk and cheese in capturing performance (as you say @craiganderton re the intricacies of even room space). Ive been pursuing it a long time but I did hear an esoteric recording of some african blues and it seriously sounds like you are sitting in the room with them...amazing even if its not your genre (I have crazy playlists)

 

Put on some good cans...

 

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