3.50 Cabs duping IRs - naming conventions

[DJ5D]

I've been trying to dupe an IR with the new dual cabs and not having much luck.

 

My favorite go to IR is a freebie that i have seen in multiple places for download, but i am not sure what the name means, and i'd like to be able to create an identical-sounding stock cab so i can share the presets. need some help tho.

 

Its from http://www.grebz.com/simulator_impulses.php#free_impulses

 

The cab is a Marshall 1960A T75 SM57, the filename for my fave is "+ 1 off axis 3_01"

 

I interpret it to mean cap edge, off axis, 3 inches away but this doesnt get me close, and i don't understand the 01 in the 3_01 part.

 

Anyone know for sure?

 

Below is a pic of the other files included for context:

[datacommando]

On 11/8/2022 at 9:42 PM, DJ5D said:

Anyone know for sure?

This sort of stuff could take forever to decipher - it all depends on how the person who created them decided to name them. Your interpretation is more than likely correct, but as for the “01 inthe 3_01 part” - dunno could be anything. You need to figure it out by trial and error as you already seem to have most of the clues there.

 

As the guy who collated those IRs states:-

“I add two zip files containing a total of nearly 950 other pulses. There is a little bit of everything, unfortunately the designers of these impulses have not always named their files very clearly, or provided explanatory documents. Some names are evocative, for others... we'll have to guess...”

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

EDIT:

I have just opened up the studio and fired up the Helix. Waddayano - right there in the re-shot updated cabs is a 4x12 1960A T75 Cab block, which includes the SM57 mic option. As the Off Axis refers to angling the mic at 45 degrees, start from there by moving out from the cone to the edge and also vary the distance, because it all makes a difference.

 

See the link about Cab Mic technique in this thread.

Edited November 9, 2022 by datacommando
Added Note

[DJ5D]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:21 AM, datacommando said:

I have just opened up the studio and fired up the Helix. Waddayano - right there in the re-shot updated cabs is a 4x12 1960A T75 Cab block, which includes the SM57 mic option. As the Off Axis refers to angling the mic at 45 degrees, start from there by moving out from the cone to the edge and also vary the distance, because it all makes a difference.

 

yes thats exactly what ive been doing here. I've noticed that the new duals seem to be a bit "fizzy" on the high end and using high pass filters only does so much. They seem to have a different sort of character to them-especially contrasted with an IR of the same cab.

 

Do you consider yourself to be expert level at dialing in cab sounds? I feel like there is some secret in the sauce that i'm missing in technique.

 

Here are the Stomp files if you, or anyone else, wants to compare, IR included. For this patch I'm using passive DiMarzio bridge humbuckers.

 

 

IronMaidenIR3_01.hlx IronMaidenT75.hlx

[datacommando]

On 11/9/2022 at 7:52 PM, DJ5D said:

Do you consider yourself to be expert level at dialing in cab sounds

LOL, good grief - no, just many years of recording stuff and deciding on what works for me - each to their own. People usually find their own techniques with these sort of things, and as with many things you could take 2 microphones of the same brand and model and each could have it’s own quirks and idiosyncrasies. 
 

The same sort of thing applies in this situation. In respect of the freebie IR, the French guy pointed out that there was little or no information on each IR. Whereas the new Cabs from Line 6 are some strange cocktail of thousands of individual IR captures compiled by some sort of voodoo.

 

Needless to say I was intrigued by this situation and had a play around with that “Marshall 1960A T75 SM57 + 1 off axis 3_01" from the French site. That’s why I suggested playing around with the Line 6 cab to see if you could get close. When I was messing with it (only for a short while) it struck me that the new cabs Hi and Lo cuts were left wide open, I would imaging the means you can further tailor to tone to suit. If you find them fizzy roll off the top end until you’re happy. You could also try adding a Tilt EQ block into the equation which would allow you to shape the sound even more.

 

I am quite busy at the moment but if I get chance I will take a look at your supplied presets.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[DJ5D]

Yup, been playing with the hi-cuts etc....and I did give that Tilt block a whirl and it seems to be a V shaped eq curve?

 

It's starting to look like there is a LOT more to IRs than than just cab and mics. 

 

For example, I was never able to properly dupe the Metallica "Master of Puppets" sound for years (very frustrating!) until I got the right IR. 

 

I'm going for Iron Maiden's "2 Minutes to Midnight" tone, I've come very, very close with that IR above, but dammit, I want to make one with stock hardware if I can.

 

 

 

 

[datacommando]

On 11/9/2022 at 10:09 PM, DJ5D said:

Yup, been playing with the hi-cuts etc....and I did give that Tilt block a whirl and it seems to be a V shaped eq curve?

 

It's starting to look like there is a LOT more to IRs than than just cab and mics. 

 

For example, I was never able to properly dupe the Metallica "Master of Puppets" sound for years (very frustrating!) until I got the right IR. 

 

I'm going for Iron Maiden's "2 Minutes to Midnight" tone, I've come very, very close with that IR above, but dammit, I want to make one with stock hardware if I can.

 

Hi, again,

 

Hmm… A lot more than cabs and mics in any recorded audio, especially when trying to replicate a famous tone. I’ve always found this sort of tone chasing rather futile. As someone once said “we were going to do a Black Sabbath song, but screw ‘em, they never did any of ours!”.
 

Those guys spend a small fortune on producers and studio time and equipment to create their sound. They could possibly be playing from the control room out into a combination of different amps and cabs, further treated with various type of EQ, compression, delays and reverbs. It’s never just simply dangling an SM57 from the top of a cab.
 

CustomTone is full of “this is dead on, and it’s my take on Steve Vai, Satch, Mark Knopfler et al”, and most people are bitterly disappointed to find that when they download the preset and are sitting in their basement/garage, or whatever, it never sounds like they expect. Many factors are involved, such as monitoring system, type of guitar/pickups, string gauge, technique etc., but basically it’s because you are not Steve Vai, Satch or any of the others. Rick Beato did a thing on why nobody can sound like Jeff Beck, because Jeff Beck is inimitable, purely because of how he plays - doesn’t matter even if you have his custom shop signature strat.

 

Anyhow, I’m not sure if you’re aware of a book written by Craig Anderton, in which Craig explains techniques for creating cab tones by using only EQs. Clever stuff. When not doing his Sweetwater thing Craig is also an occasional contributor to this forum. You may wish to indulge.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[DJ5D]

On 11/9/2022 at 3:55 PM, datacommando said:

CustomTone is full of “this is dead on, and it’s my take on Steve Vai, Satch, Mark Knopfler et al”, and most people are bitterly disappointed to find that when they download the preset and are

 

Yeah, ive been among the bitterly disappointed, lol. I know that gain staging, pickups, speakers have a lot do with how presets sound, sometimes i can tweak and get it good other times im like, this isnt even in the ballpark??

So funny you mentioned Craig Anderton, i'm deep into that about now- this tab was open on my desktop, an article he wrote.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/double-best-line-6-helix-tone/

 

[DJ5D]

and yes, the tone chasing is sometimes futile, but ive got zeppelin, metallica, sabbath, pink floyd, eagles dialed in....and i learn a LOT when i tone-chase. So its all good. 

[codamedia]

On 11/9/2022 at 1:52 PM, DJ5D said:

Do you consider yourself to be expert level at dialing in cab sounds? I feel like there is some secret in the sauce that i'm missing in technique.

 

It's not hard... but the variables make for endless amounts of tonal variations. 

This is extremely rudimentary, but it may help. 

• too immediate.... pull the mic back
• too distant... put the mic closer
• too bright... move the mic toward the edge
• too dark... move the mic toward the center
  • some mics have proximity effect.... if they are too dark, pulling them back reduces the low end and vice versa

 

Keep in mind... every 1" you move a mic makes a big difference. Sometimes a little movement is all it takes. Studio engineers will spend hours with mic positions before they touch an EQ. 

 

On 11/9/2022 at 1:52 PM, DJ5D said:

I've noticed that the new duals seem to be a bit "fizzy" on the high end and using high pass filters only does so much.

 

Do not go near the high cuts or low cuts until you have done all you can with positioning.  Moving the mic toward the speaker edge will remove a lot more fizz than any high cut will. The same applies with pulling the mic away from the speaker. 

[codamedia]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:09 PM, DJ5D said:

I did give that Tilt block a whirl and it seems to be a V shaped eq curve?

 

Think of the tilt more like a "teeter-totter"... it teeters at the frequency set point.... that point itself will not be cut or boosted like it would in a "v shape".  

When you move to the dark, it raises everything below the set point while lowing everything above. When moved to the bright it's the opposite. 

[zappazapper]

On 11/8/2022 at 4:42 PM, DJ5D said:

i'd like to be able to create an identical-sounding stock cab so i can share the presets.

There are just too many variables involved, as others have already mentioned, to make the process feasible in terms of time and effort. There's every reason to think it's technically possible to get an identical match of one IR by tweaking another, but there's just as much reason to think that the process of tweaking that IR will take hours, days, weeks, months, and you still might never get it exactly right. Part of the reason is that IRs are not simply EQ curves. Frequency response is captured in an IR, but so is phase. Phase is a complex thing. Speaker cabinets and microphones have their own effects on phase. The essential concept behind equalization involves manipulating phase to affect frequency response, but the way an EQ affects phase for a given frequency boost or cut is not necessarily comparable to the way a speaker or microphone affects phase with respect to its own frequency response. You could, theoretically, run frequency sweeps through both IRs, analyze the outputs, and use an equalizer to match the frequency response EXACTLY, and it still might not sound the same because the phase relationship of the frequencies are different, and there's no way to manipulate those phase relationships without then affecting then frequency response. Phase is the main reason we use impulse responses for cabinet emulation, as opposed to just EQ curves, because speaker cabinets are essentially reverb tanks that resonate and add phase differences that are unrelated to how an EQ uses phase to affect frequency response.

[Schmalle]

@DJ5D

I took the challenge and this DualCab is my take on getting something close to "your" IR:

Moo)))n T75
57Dyn, center, 2.00", 45°, LC 80Hz, HC 12kHz, +0.5dB, center, 0.0ms
Moo)))n T75
4038Rib, 4.5, 2.50", 0°, LC 80Hz, HC off, -0.5dB, center, 0.06ms

I struggled quite a bit and it's certainly not 100% the same, but at least in the ballpark imho.

[PaulTBaker]

Sorry if this is the wrong place,  but even with the new cabs, the only one that sounds good for my setup is the ampeg 1x15 (legacy).  For reference, I have a Helix floor, running l6link to PC212+ then from that to PC112+ on top.  I also have a behringer XR18 with 2 EV ZLX 112s and connect to this through the XLR L and R.  The PC's are set to LFLR Raw. (though I have tried other combinations and it makes no difference).

 

ALL the other cab (even new ones) sound harsh, brittle, metalic, no warmth.  I have tried it just the PC's, just the ZLX's, a blend of both.  Also with Tele, strat, les paul, and a yamaha hollow body with soapbox pu's.  it doesn't matter.  I have spent hours (many many hours) playing with the high/low cuts on the cabs and on eq's at the end of the chain... they help somewhat, but nothing sounds like the ampeg 1x15.  It also doesn't matter the amp used.  I have used many!  I have download other's presets and templates... same thing.  the latest I tried was last night with Jason Sadites new templates.

 

I'm ok, because I truly love what I am getting with the ampeg 1x15.... it just baffles me!  I know you can't expect your sounds to sound close to what you see on youtube, but it is just weird to me.  

 

Has anyone else had this issue?

[zappazapper]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:53 PM, PaulTBaker said:

Sorry if this is the wrong place.

It probably is. Don't sweat it. 

 

On 11/15/2022 at 1:53 PM, PaulTBaker said:

...the only one that sounds good for my setup is the ampeg 1x15 (legacy). 

Something "sounding good" is purely subjective. It might be that the Ampeg just gives you the sound you're looking for. But many people are very pleased with how other cabs sound, so there's at least a chance that something is going kooky with your setup. No offense but your monitoring setup is at best unconventional, and at worst offers a ton of possible ways to go wrong. I would simplify for testing purposes - plug your Helix into a half-decent pair of headphones and see if you feel the same about the cabs. If you do, you probably just really like the Ampeg cab. Nothing wrong with that. If not, there's probably something going kooky with your setup and you need to put it on an elimination diet to figure out what it is. Start small, make sure everything works and sounds as expected, and add small pieces until things start to sound bad. 

[PaulTBaker]

Thanks for the reply.  Yes, agree and understand the subjectivity of all of this.  This is my setup for when I'm at home.  I have broken it down to be as simple as possible.  Have used headphones, can't remember which ones they were, but they were good ones ( I know, :),...)  they were horrible coming out of the helix.  major high cuts helped... but even then the ampeg just sounded best.  

 

Never thought of the setup as Wonky :).... interesting to hear that.  works for me though... I guess I just like the ampeg.... and I do!

 

Thanks!

[zappazapper]

On 11/15/2022 at 5:36 PM, PaulTBaker said:

Have used headphones, can't remember which ones they were, but they were good ones ( I know, :),...)  they were horrible coming out of the helix.  major high cuts helped... but even then the ampeg just sounded best.  

Sounds like you just really like the ampeg 

 

On 11/15/2022 at 5:36 PM, PaulTBaker said:

Never thought of the setup as Wonky

Well, you're running two full-range flat-response stereo systems along with a mono full-range flat-response system. Certainly not conventional. Possibly the source of all kinds of issues, not limited to more opportunities for a wrong setting somewhere, not to mention more opportunities for phase issues. It's not what I would do, but to each his own. 

 

Anyway, sounds like the issue is that you just really like the Ampeg. Moving on...

[PaulTBaker]

not to beat a dead horse, however... my setup is largely like what it would be on stage.  The PC's would be what I hear on stage and the ZLX's is the FOH. Unless I am missing something, and if I am, I really would like to understand.  The way I have it setup now, I can get something I like through the PC's, and then check to see what it would sound like through the FOH... We use the Behringer for our mixer.   

 

Are you saying the PC112+ stacked on the PC212+ could cause phase issues?  I don't think I've heard any....

[DJ5D]

@Schmalle

 

On 11/12/2022 at 4:06 PM, Schmalle said:

@DJ5D

I took the challenge and this DualCab is my take on getting something close to "your" IR:

Moo)))n T75
57Dyn, center, 2.00", 45°, LC 80Hz, HC 12kHz, +0.5dB, center, 0.0ms
Moo)))n T75
4038Rib, 4.5, 2.50", 0°, LC 80Hz, HC off, -0.5dB, center, 0.06ms

I struggled quite a bit and it's certainly not 100% the same, but at least in the ballpark imho.

 

 

Hey Schmalle, great work! Pretty darn close for the Powerslave preset!

 

I didn't see your post for a couple of weeks but I just tried it and the character is definitely in the ballpark. i hadn't tried the Moons yet. Thanks!