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Knob not working since 3.5 update on LT


adauria
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Hi folks,

 

I tried searching this but it's hard to come up with a phrase that brings up anything meaningful.

 

I updated my Helix LT to 3.5 the other day per instructions, everything seemed good. I went to use it the other night at rehearsal and everything was great except for the fact that the 4th knob under the display isn't working correctly. When I turn it in either direction, it simply goes between 2 adjacent values (e.g. 4.5 to 4.6 then to 4.5 then to 4.6 etc.). You can press it in and it seems to recognize that action just fine. Every other knob works just fine - better, in fact, since the upgrade. This knob worked just fine under 3.15 as I used it all the time. 

 

I did another backup, then another factory reset (holding buttons 9/10 when powering on) and the issue still persists. Can anyone recommend any other troubleshooting methods here? I'm stuck, and I definitely need that knob to operate as I use it to adjust some parameters (e.g. amp treble or delay mix) at rehearsals when I'm not attached to my computer (where I can make these adjustments successfully). 

 

Thanks in advance!

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On 11/9/2022 at 9:58 AM, CraigGT said:

Start it in test mode FS3&4 select UI Test and see what it indicates.

 

Craig

 

Thank you! ENC4, which is the knob in question, has the same problem in UI Test mode - only toggles between 2 values. Does this imply a hardware problem or something else?

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On 11/9/2022 at 2:55 PM, CraigGT said:

I'd say it's a hardware problem and it's a coincidence about the firmware update.

 

Craig

 

Probably right about a hardware problem but I would still try doing a backup and factory reset and backup restore anyway. If that doesn't help I would follow-up by repeating the entire firmware update with factory reset and backup restore. That doesn't do it, contact Line 6 support.

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On 11/9/2022 at 3:51 PM, HonestOpinion said:

 

Probably right about a hardware problem but I would still try doing a backup and factory reset and backup restore anyway. If that doesn't help I would follow-up by repeating the entire firmware update with factory reset and backup restore. That doesn't do it, contact Line 6 support.

 

Thank you both! I have already done the first (another factory reset and restore) with same result. How would I do another firmware update? HX Edit isn't prompting me to do it since I'm current, and I'm not sure how to force it. 

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On 11/10/2022 at 1:45 PM, adauria said:

 

Thank you both! I have already done the first (another factory reset and restore) with same result. How would I do another firmware update? HX Edit isn't prompting me to do it since I'm current, and I'm not sure how to force it. 

 

Hi,

 

If you have suffered a failed installation, or encounter a situation where you need to re-install the current firmware, go here and follow the advice in the post.

 

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

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Thank you. I just did the manual re-install of the firmware and I'm having the same problem still. I have contacted Line 6 support. I believe I am out of warranty, but hopefully they can help me. 

 

I'm open for more suggestions while I wait for a response from Line 6. Thanks!

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On 11/10/2022 at 12:31 PM, adauria said:

Thank you. I just did the manual re-install of the firmware and I'm having the same problem still. I have contacted Line 6 support. I believe I am out of warranty, but hopefully they can help me. 

 

I'm open for more suggestions while I wait for a response from Line 6. Thanks!

 

On 11/10/2022 at 8:43 PM, cinchocaine said:

Hello,

i have exactly(!) the same problem. After the 3.5 Firmware update the 4th knob is not working anymore. It is like adauria described it.

I also own the Helix LT.

 

Help much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

If you have indeed executed the factory reset and restore in addition to the upgrade, barring coincidence, you may have discovered a bug. I would contact Line 6 support.

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Ah!! I did contact support and they suggested what was suggested here (even less) and then suggested I take it to a service location (hundreds of miles from me) or ship it back to them. They said they haven't heard of this issue elsewhere. I asked if I could try to downgrade and they said I could try that, so that's my next step likely later this week.

 

cinchocaine - maybe you should open a ticket as well. You can reference mine - 438517 as well. If it's a bug, great, let's get them to fix. Also, hopefully a downgrade will be a workaround. 

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Very strange. I wonder if the knob not working anymore is known problem in generell? I dont use the device that much. It is only on a floor in a normal room. So, a damage due to transportation or whatever should not be possible.  I wait for the result you get, when the device is downgraded.

Since the LT is popular, more people should have this problem

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After you said you have the exact same problem, I was hopeful that a downgrade would fix it. In my case, however, it did not fix it. @cinchocaine If you feel like trying a downgrade yourself, I'd be very interested in the results. I understand if you don't want to go through the effort (though it was fairly easy, and easy to get back to my previous state). 

 

At this point I will have travel 2.5 hours to go to a service center or spend a fortune on shipping it back to Line 6. Total bummer. I might buy a Pod Go or something as a backup before I do this, and then just keep the Pod Go for my house and use the (hopefully) repaired Helix LT for live use, instead of having it do double duty. That, or I'm considering the Headrush MX5 which is on sale everywhere, or I saw a deal on used Fractal FM3. Still, I probably want to keep things in the family just for my own sanity. 

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I don't think I will try the downgrade. Does not seem worth it. Still very strange why we have the same problem. Both knob 4, after the update. What a coincidence. Repairing this surely will be very expensive. So I am not willing to do that either.

If the update ist not the cause, what is it? So many people have these devices. Are we the only two who experienced this issue?

 

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On 11/19/2022 at 7:03 PM, Vohlumes said:

I'm having this same exact problem as well on a unit I bought used today with no warranty. Super pissed since it's knob 2 that allows you to change the preset mode in global presets. 

Is it since updating with 3.5? Doesn't sound like you mean the parameter knobs, or maybe you do? Is it knob 4 under the display, left to right? 

 

In any case, you can open a ticket even on a used unit (I did). 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/10/2022 at 8:43 PM, cinchocaine said:

Hello,

i have exactly(!) the same problem. After the 3.5 Firmware update the 4th knob is not working anymore. It is like adauria described it.

I also own the Helix LT.

 

Help much appreciated.

Thanks!

I'm having exactly this problem on a Helix LT knob 4, and I did update to 3.5.  I just purchased new but scratch/dent from a major retailer.  I can't say for certain that the knob 4 was working before, but seems like quite a coincidence.  All other knobs are working.  I'll try a factory reset again and the down grade over the next few days.

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It occurs to me that I have not seen a single user report back here that downgrading their firmware fixed the problem with their knob not working. Four possibilities immediately occur to me.

 

  1. No one has rolled back to a previous firmware version and reported back.
    1. We have no evidence that rolling back fixes these reported hardware failures and therefore no cause and effect with the new firmware can be concluded.
  2. Rolling back does not fix the hardware issue.
    1. As stated above, no one has reported here after rolling back but if the rollback does not fix the issue, it is highly unlikely the problem is the 3.5 firmware.
  3. The upgrade either damages the switches/knobs, or leaves something in place that impacts the hardware that is persistent even after rolling back.
    1. This seems so unlikely to me as to verge on the absurd. I categorically reject it but thought I would mention it in a universe of infinite possibility.
  4. This topic risks becoming a magnet for users with purely coincidental hardware issues, conflating them with the new firmware rollout. To me this seems like the most likely scenario for the affected users.
    1. Coincidence seems to me to be the most likely explanation for these hardware failures, at least currently, until and if more evidence becomes available, such as confirmation from Line 6.
    2. There are very few reports on the forum of hardware failure reports after the firmware upgrade. If this were a problem caused by the firmware update, I would expect to see many more.

So, in conclusion, I have to trot out the tired old car repair analogy. You get your car back from the shop after a repair, and much too your chagrin, you notice something else on the car is no longer working. The temptation to assume your mechanic "did it" is overwhelming but not necessarily true. The same might be going on here. As of now, the evidence seems compellingly to be pointing to coincidence, NOT the firmware upgrade. I say this, not to discount these users' conclusions, but just to spare them and other users with hardware problems, potentially spinning their wheels looking at the wrong cause. If anyone discovers differently, please report back. Anything is possible, if unlikely.

 

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On 12/2/2022 at 9:31 PM, HonestOpinion said:

As of now, the evidence seems compellingly to be pointing to coincidence, NOT the firmware upgrade. I say this, not to discount these users' conclusions, but just to spare them and other users with hardware problems, potentially spinning their wheels looking at the wrong cause. If anyone discovers differently, please report back. Anything is possible, if unlikely.


Hi,

 

I have to concur with you about this.
 

The OP here also commented in a parallel thread regarding a failed EXP pedal on an LT. The other thread starter mentioned that it was a pre-owned unit and when he bought it the guy told him the pedal was malfunctioning. After it appeared to be working once more, he says that he did the 3.50 update and the update broke his expression pedal. You couldn’t make this stuff up. If the Firmware was physically damaging specific parts of the hardware, I would seriously expect the internet to be alive with complaints.

 


Some of the stuff that gets posted in here is beyond belief.

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On 12/2/2022 at 7:01 PM, datacommando said:

.... If the Firmware was physically damaging specific parts of the hardware, I would seriously expect the internet to be alive with complaints.

 

 

I get it. Human brains (zombie baiting) are big on pattern recognition. A useful survival mechanism since we crawled out of the primordial ooze. If two things occur in close proximity or time to each other, we often assume cause & effect or correlation. Sometimes confusing one for the other. But sometimes it is neither, just coincidence. Also typically, it is more difficult to prove a negative like "this firmware upgrade NEVER caused a hardware failure".

 

Without more evidence I find it difficult to jump to the conclusion that this firmware upgrade caused a hardware failure. Particularly when it can't be remedied by either repeating the upgrade steps or rolling back to a previous version, as well as also lacking confirmation from Line 6. One possible exception perhaps would be a part/PCB that is so stressed already that just being reinitialized caused it to fail. In which case, it would have probably failed in short order under regular usage or perhaps the next time it was turned off/on. In other words, it wasn't the firmware update specifically that caused the failure, but more generally any action that addressed/stressed that part. I would think this to be an incredibly rare occurrence. 

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OP here... I don't think it's that crazy that it's an update related issue since the update specifically contained a change to the behavior of these knobs. Like most bugs (if this is a bug), it would only impact a limited number of users based, e.g., on configuration settings, hardware revision differences, etc. I've been working in the software business since 1996, so I have seen my share of weird software bugs. Not mention the sample size might be pretty small - Active Helix users, LT model, upgraded to 3.5, and whatever other conditions might cause this behavior, again IF it's a bug. I'm not married to that concept, but if has happened to 3 of us now (exact some knob on the LT) upon the point of upgrading to 3.5, the odds of coincidence go down - not impossible yet, but reduced.

 

@datacommando  @theElevators I'm glad you have no issues with the upgrade and your Helix. There's no need to mock investigating the possibility of this being a bug in light of the logic above. Another factor is that the closest authorized service center is 150 miles from me, and I'm out of warranty, so investigating fully before paying to investigate the hardware route makes a lot of sense, no? 

 

Support initially thought maybe they were seeing something here since there were a couple of other reports of similar issues. They had me do (another) UI mode test, and then said, oh well... take it for service. That's my plan, but in the mean time I'll keep watching this thread since we now have 3 independent reports of this.

 

@HonestOpinionI did test the rollback, but I didn't factory reset AGAIN after the downgrade. I plan to try that test after I play at church this Sunday and bring the unit home again. If it works, you can be sure I'll report it here. I'll also let this forum know what the result of taking it in for authorized service is, if I have to go that route. 

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On 12/1/2022 at 4:26 PM, shumphreysmusic said:

I'm having exactly this problem on a Helix LT knob 4, and I did update to 3.5.  I just purchased new but scratch/dent from a major retailer.  I can't say for certain that the knob 4 was working before, but seems like quite a coincidence.  All other knobs are working.  I'll try a factory reset again and the down grade over the next few days.

 

Did you open a ticket? I'm trying to understand if you are one of the additional cases with the LT that the support rep told me about, or if you are another case altogether.

 

Also, if you downgrade, try the factory reset procedure (power on with pedals 9/10 depressed) after the downgrade. I'll post the results of my downgrade / reset procedure here as well. 

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On 12/3/2022 at 10:32 AM, adauria said:

 

 

@datacommando  @theElevators I'm glad you have no issues with the upgrade and your Helix. There's no need to mock investigating the possibility of this being a bug in light of the logic above. Another factor is that the closest authorized service center is 150 miles from me, and I'm out of warranty, so investigating fully before paying to investigate the hardware route makes a lot of sense, no?

I'm not touching this upgrade with a 10' pole  I have a 4 week tour coming up... nope, no thanks. 

 

Line 6 is great at gaslighting users: "nobody is reporting this", when multiple forum users complained about knob #4. 

 

 

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I am kind of disappointed by Line6. I opened a ticket and they replied the problem is not known. The likelihood of a knob failing is very low. And several people having to fail knob 4 after a specific event (3.5 update) should be insanely low. It is way more likely that some kind of bug is causing this. Even when only a few people are affected. 

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OK, I attempted another downgrade, this time doing a factory reset (hold FS9/10) after the downgrade. Same result, no joy.

 

One thing that is strange, though, is that on 3.5 turning that knob in either direction will alternate 2 adjacent values (e.g 39/40) and go no further, but in 3.15 and the UI test the number the parameter controls doesn't budget at all. 

 

So, still odd behavior, but another clue. At this point I'll take it to the shop in a couple of weeks once I can get over that that part of the state. Maybe I'll get lucky and hear more about it or find that it's software, but unless that happens we'll have to see what they say at the authorized service center. 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi. I recently acquired a used Helix Floor that is exhibiting the same weird behavior others have described here. But in my case it's happening on encoder knob #2. Rotating it in either direction causes the parameter to alternate between two adjacent values.

 

If any of you have had your Helix serviced out of warranty, how much did it cost to get this fixed and how long did it take? I'm trying to decide if I should send it off for service or just return it. Thanks.

 

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This problem doesn't sound made up to me at all.  It doesn't sound like "it's just in your head".  When I got my Helix it was loaded with 2.2 and it worked fine.  When I updated to 2.6 it developed a problem that unfortunately, I didn't discover right away, probably because I had created a bunch of presets that I was happy with and wasn't tweaking very often anymore.  The problem went like this: if I hit the "amp" button (next to Home) the unit would freeze up.  It would still process the guitar sound (at whatever preset/setting it was at before freezing) but it would not accept any physical input.  The knobs didn't work, the buttons didn't work, the foot switches didn't work, nothing.  I would have to power it down and reboot to get it to respond again.  Then, if I hit the amp button it would freeze up again and I would have to reboot again.  I joined this forum and vented my frustration and I was met with a dismissive attitude from the members here.  I was told it was either a hardware problem or it was all in my head.  I tried factory resets many times.  I tried reinstalling firmware many times.  There were other things I tried too but I can't recall right now, many of which were suggest by forum members.  None of those things made any difference.  Eventually I started a support ticket and L6 told me they needed it shipped to them for diagnosis and repair.  The repairs and shipping would be at my cost because I was past the warranty period when I created the ticket.  The unit worked fine unless I pressed the amp button so I just stopped using the amp button and saved myself some money.  Each time I updated firmware after that I would check the amp button problem to see if they fixed it because the members here had not been successful in convincing me it was hardware and I became disliked on this forum by several members due to my continued complaining about it.  After some time I updated to 2.82 .... problem still there.  Later updated to 2.92 .... problem still there.  Now I was doubting myself.  Maybe I'd have to eat crow and admit it was a hardware thing.  Updated to 3.0 and .... voila!  No more problem!  Then 3.1 and still no problem.  Now 3.5 and still no problem.  So you tell me.  Was it a hardware problem that somehow fixed itself?  Does Helix employ Borg Nano-technology?  I certainly never opened it up and sprayed De-Oxit on the button or any other attempt at a self-diagnosis because I had learned to live with it and I didn't want to risk making anything worse.

 

All I'm saying is, try not to be dismissive.  I never did learn exactly what the problem was.  All I can tell you is that it appeared after an update and it disappeared several updates later so nobody is ever going to convince me I had a hardware problem.

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On 1/20/2023 at 11:42 PM, theslim said:

Hi. I recently acquired a used Helix Floor that is exhibiting the same weird behavior others have described here. But in my case it's happening on encoder knob #2. Rotating it in either direction causes the parameter to alternate between two adjacent values.

 

If any of you have had your Helix serviced out of warranty, how much did it cost to get this fixed and how long did it take? I'm trying to decide if I should send it off for service or just return it. Thanks.

 

 

OP here. I ended up sending it back to Line6. I believe they wanted to look at my unit so they could determine if the issue was something related to hardware, software, or what. They ended up doing the repair under warranty for me. I didn't get a lot of details on what they did or found, but when I asked they said they swapped the entire display with the knobs. So, maybe hardware? Maybe software impacted the hardware? In any case, they made right by me and I'm grateful I've got it working again. 

 

I did have the same issue you had on knob 4 - 2 values alternating back and forth. So, weird for sure. 

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