Why can I only access 8-10 stomp boxes within a preset?

[PierM]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:22 PM, toddkc said:

I could be wrong here, and honestly I'm curious if I am, but I don't think even adding an extra midi controller would allow this to be done.  I have an FCB1010 and have hooked it up to my floor but according to the midi section in the manual you still only get access to the same 8 snapshots and 10 stomps.  AFAIK there is no way to add extra stomps even with the external midi pedal.   I have my fcb1010 setup so that I can use it to change snapshots while keeping the floor in stomp mode and that definitely adds some novelty but nothing I would buy the extra pedal for if I hadn't already owned it.

 

https://helixhelp.com/tips-and-guides/universal/midi

 

For stomp bypass and params, you can use non reserved CCs to command everything you want, via CC assignation or auto learn.

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:14 PM, DunedinDragon said:

Well that you can take up with Digital Igloo and the rest of the L6 development team.  They've always been very explicit about why the limits exist based on the number of DSP chips (which are NOT CPUs by the way, they're technically real-time math/audio processors) and why the allocation of blocks are limited per signal chain (the same reason you have to sacrifice one signal chain in order to have no pause between presets because one of those DSP chips must be used as a buffer.  If you're in doubt try loading up 32 delays and see what happens.

 

All that hasn't got anything to do with latency, it's just about CPU performance.

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:02 PM, PierM said:

In all honestly, even if I had 24 physical pedals, I'd never - ever - use them in a tap dance. That's totally messed up and inefficient. You'd use a loop switcher, which is basically what snapshots are for.

 

Nah, snapshots are very different from what you can do with a loopswitcher. With the latter I can "pre-define" what's happening in each loop once it's engaged without having to make it a permanent decision. That's impossible with snapshots. It does work with parallel paths, but I was using them up all the time as well. I really wish there was some sort of loop switcher clone setup to be had in a modeler, but there isn't (in none of them). The closest I came was when using Guitar Rig along with Energy XT back in the days, but the setup was quite messy.

 

On 11/26/2022 at 8:02 PM, PierM said:

Also, in a hypothetical multipage stomp mode, you'd have to remember what's on and where... along 3 pages of stomps, sharing same led colors.

 

Personally, I'd use any additional pages for adjustments only, so I could quickly select blocks and possibly program snapshots, too.

[PierM]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:42 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

Nah, snapshots are very different from what you can do with a loopswitcher. With the latter I can "pre-define" what's happening in each loop once it's engaged without having to make it a permanent decision.

 

Depends on the swicther.

 

The very definition of it is "a device that houses pairs of send and receive ports (the loops) that send signal to and receive signal from each one of your pedals, allowing remote control of whether that pedal is in or out of your signal flow"

 

Also I was simplifying, as a snaphot can also recall params variation within blocks not only stomp bypass. Dont "nah" me please lol! ;)

 

 

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:57 PM, PierM said:

Depends on the swicther.

 

Not really. All of them allow for one simple thing: Switching loops with whatever pleases you inside. And those things pleasing you can be switched on/off. Snapshots can't do that.

[kaffekask]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:13 PM, datacommando said:

 

That’s rather odd, because you were proposing that the concept was a “no brainier”. Hmm… yeah, right! “How can be it impossible?” is a question that needs to be aimed at the Line 6 Software Engineers, not users of the forum, who are not Line 6 staff or privy to the workings of their minds. Plus none of those people are here.

 

Wanting more than ten pedals is definitely not strange, it’s what is commonly referred to GAS. We all suffer from it to some degree, come with the territory.
 

You should understand that - yes the Helix does allow you to create a signal chain with up to 32 blocks that can be assigned however you wish - the trick is to use then with a modicum of common sense and plan how you intend to deploy these effects. The whole reason for “Snapshots” was for users to be able map up to 64 different parameter changes across a single preset and create the concept of “presets within a preset” with 8 or 10 footswitches  - this was one of those things that people complained about not having especially as Fractal users had “Scenes” available to them.

 

That’s also rather odd once more, because I refer you to your previous comment, “How can it be impossible for the team to let me change…”

 

No, you’re not the first to wonder about this - see above reference to “Snapshots”.

 

Sign up for IdeaScale and check that nobody else has already posted a similar feature request.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Someone’s a bit cranky today.

 

“That’s rather odd, because you were proposing that the concept was a “no brainier”. Hmm… yeah, right!”

 

What is odd? Yes, I think it is a bit weird that they didn’t include the possibility to switch banks to access more than 10 effects. Some of us aren’t interested in doing individual presets for different songs. We bought the effects unit for the effects. We use the same amp and same 10-15 effects for all of our songs. We just want to turn a few of the effects on once in a while and turn them off, we don’t care for the other stuff.  

 

“How can be it impossible?” is a question that needs to be aimed at the Line 6 Software Engineers, not users of the forum, who are not Line 6 staff or privy to the workings of their minds. Plus none of those people are here.

 

What is your problem? The whole point of a forum is to ask questions to people who know more than you in hope of getting your questions answered. Just because you personally can’t answer my questions doesn’t mean that no-one on this forum can. 

 

“Wanting more than ten pedals is definitely not strange, it’s what is commonly referred to GAS. We all suffer from it to some degree, come with the territory.”

 

I would definitely not define owning 10+ pedals GAS. That is just being interested in more than 10 different sounds, which is pretty normal.

 

“You should understand that - yes the Helix does allow you to create a signal chain with up to 32 blocks that can be assigned however you wish - the trick is to use then with a modicum of common sense and plan how you intend to deploy these effects. “

 

As I stated before, some of us aren’t interested in planning how to use our gear in the future, we just want to use our gear. Like how physical pedalboards have been working the last 50 years.

 

[zappazapper]

On 11/26/2022 at 3:44 PM, kaffekask said:

 

Someone’s a bit cranky today.

 

What is your problem? The whole point of a forum is to ask questions to people who know more than you in hope of getting your questions answered. Just because you personally can’t answer my questions doesn’t mean that no-one on this forum can. 

 

He's cranky most days XD

 

@datacommandoyou know a lot, and you help a lot of people out on this forum, but sometimes the way you communicate isn't very helpful. @kaffekaskisn't asking a stupid question, and even the whole "sticking to his guns" routine is reasonable. There are concepts that come with this thing that are foreign to many players and we should have patience with having to say goodbye to one mentality and being forced into another. 

 

On 11/26/2022 at 3:44 PM, kaffekask said:

Some of us aren’t interested in doing individual presets for different songs. We bought the effects unit for the effects. We use the same amp and same 10-15 effects for all of our songs. We just want to turn a few of the effects on once in a while and turn them off, we don’t care for the other stuff.  

 

On 11/26/2022 at 3:44 PM, kaffekask said:

As I stated before, some of us aren’t interested in planning how to use our gear in the future, we just want to use our gear. Like how physical pedalboards have been working the last 50 years.

 

With all due respect, you didn't buy a pedalboard. You bought a multi-fx with models of a lot of pedals. Like I said before, the answer is that the Helix doesn't work like a pedalboard, or at least not a 32 pedal pedalboard. If you want that kind of behavior, you'll need to buy a pedalboard.

 

On the other hand, if you want to take advantage of the very powerful control paradigm that the Helix offers, that you will probably enjoy more than a pedalboard, there are many helpful users on this forum that can help you. Datacommando is one of them but you sometimes have to sift through his passive-aggressive manner to get at the good stuff. He knows his stuff. But if he's not to your liking, there are many others who know their stuff as well. 

[datacommando]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:44 PM, kaffekask said:

Someone’s a bit cranky today.

 

Nope!
 

Luckily, you happened to catch me on a really good day. If you think I’m “cranky” you could try pitching your idea over on TGP, in the Digital and Modeling Gear, Helix section. That could be fun.

Ultimately, the answer your original question “Why can I only access 8-10 stomp boxes within a preset?” is - because that’s the way it is.

 

Nuff said. Have a nice life.

 

On 11/26/2022 at 10:05 PM, zappazapper said:

He's cranky most days XD

 

@datacommandoyou know a lot, and you help a lot of people out on this forum, but sometimes the way you communicate isn't very helpful. @kaffekaskisn't asking a stupid question, and even the whole "sticking to his guns" routine is reasonable. There are concepts that come with this thing that are foreign to many players and we should have patience with having to say goodbye to one mentality and being forced into another.

 

That’s very astute of you, but not really “cranky”, simply very old and curmudgeonly and can appear rather brusque. I’m from a different age - prior to Generation Snowflake and the whole Cancel Culture mentality. You could ask, am I bothered by that, and my answer will always be DILLIGAF. I told I was old. ;-)

 

 

Thank you, but there are many who come in here and are assisted by a relatively small group of regular contributors - no need to name them, they know who they are, and how much they contribute to this forum. I (along with others) try to do whatever I can to help folk out in these forums, sometime in several different languages (via a translation app). We genuinely try to point newbies and seasoned users in the right direction for any situation - stage, studio and we will even assist the forlorn bedroom player, but sometimes it is the equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall. In the end it does grind you down. Some people can’t handle the truth. Do they ever read the tech spec, or a manual for anything, before making the financial investment in new gear. Apparently not.

 

Now, it’s Saturday night and I intend to go and get very drunk, so I’ll just leave this here as an example of an exercise in total futility.

 

I’m outta here!

[DunedinDragon]

Lord knows those that have been around here for many years, pretty much since the beginning of Helix have suffered through a lot of dumb questions including our own in the beginning.  But I'm kind of agreeing with @datacommando that there's a lot of comments and questions that make you go "hmmmmmmmm....".  For example in this case my first thought was, didn't he notice there were a LOT less footpedals on the Helix than what he wanted to have active before he bought it?  And why didn't that prompt him to do a little bit of research on the capabilities of the unit before buying it?  But maybe that's just my nascent curmudgeon trying to come out......

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/27/2022 at 2:19 AM, DunedinDragon said:

For example in this case my first thought was, didn't he notice there were a LOT less footpedals on the Helix than what he wanted to have active before he bought it?

 

You certainly have a point there. Even if in these times, when updates are a part of what you might expect (and what most companies actually do deliver), it's still a pretty wise idea to buy anything "as is" and get along with it.

I did it pretty much like that and haven't been dissapointed (well, I partially have been, but those were unforeseeable things such as the most miserable visibility under cricital light conditions), I just got what I bought and it's been worth my money.

 

Yet, there's tons of room for improvements, and as L6 is improving the Helix more or less regularly, they could as well focus a bit more on the usability aspect (which they don't do all that much...), so I think it's pretty valid to suggest some improvements - even if they usually don't listen and just add some more amp models...

The latter has been the reason why, even if I bought the Floor "as is" (or rather "as was") and got my money's worth, I ultimately had to sell it. And fwiw, at this point in time, I don't expect any noticeable improvements regarding all things usability/utilitarian anymore. Which is why I was sort of happily moving on, no need to worry about something that won't happen anyway.

 

[kaffekask]

At least one person wrote “I would've absolutely loved a second page of stomp assignments. Was constantly running out of them with the Floor. “. So I do not feel like a complete alien on this subject :)

 

Zappazapper:

“With all due respect, you didn't buy a pedalboard. You bought a multi-fx with models of a lot of pedals. Like I said before, the answer is that the Helix doesn't work like a pedalboard, or at least not a 32 pedal pedalboard. If you want that kind of behavior, you'll need to buy a pedalboard.”

 

Got it. As I said before - I obviously didn’t know what I was buying. I am going to approach the Helix from a different mindset (presets/snapshots) and I am sure I will absolutely love it in the end. And as Silverhead/datacommando said, using Helix Native and changing effects with the mouse could be an option for me.

 

datacommando:

“but not really “cranky”, simply very old and curmudgeonly and can appear rather brusque. I’m from a different age - prior to Generation Snowflake and the whole Cancel Culture mentality. You could ask am I bothered by that, and my answer will always be DILLIGAF. I told I was old. ;-)”

 

I’m not going to go into the whole “I’m old, I have a licence to be somewhat cranky/rude from time to time. Younger generations are softies and I’m never gonna change the way I communicate/reason ”. I’m bored with this approach of communication between older people and younger people. 

 

datacommando:

“Some people can’t handle the truth. “

 

If you are referring to me here I really do not understand what you are getting at. I accept the product as it is. Do I think it can be better? Yes. Would it be a better product aimed to more guitar players if you could access another bank of footswitch assigned effects? Obviously. 

 

If the unit would somehow allow us to a second or third bank (so 20 or 30 stomp effects instead of 10) then a lot of guitarists wouldn’t have to learn a new concept of snapshots/presets (even if it is better). You can choose if you want to use the Helix with an old school approach or a new approach. The product would be perfect.

 

So people who just want to use the Helix to replace their physical pedalboard of 15-20 stomp boxes could do that. I am one of those people, I just want to recreate a signal chain with 15-20 effects and access them as a normal pedalboard. Helix can do a hell of a lot of things, but not that. If that could be done sometime in the future (more chips or whatever) - great. Right now I have to find another way of working with the Helix (not complaining).

 

datacommando:

“Do they ever read the tech spec, or a manual for anything, before making the financial investment in new gear. Apparently not.”

 

Not all people love reading manuals. It can be confusing. I got a midi foot controller once and tried to understand the manual and it was like reading a math book. That’s when YouTube tutorials and forums are great. You can simply ask a question and instead of reading a manual someone can take a few minutes of their time and give you the answer. 

 

Datacommando, just because a thread is created on this forum with a stupid question you do not have to get involved. You can choose to do other things with your life if the OP is a moron. There are always going to be morons. I just bought the Helix and it is my first multi effect unit. I’m a complete moron when it comes to this world. I’m sure I’m going to be somewhat of an expert in a few years if I use it every day. Even if that day comes I’m not going to bang my head against the wall if a moron ask a silly question, but that is just me.

 

In my case I was going up and down through all of the menus trying to get a second bank of effects but I couldn’t. So I though “maybe I should just ask the pros if this even can be done”. I got my answer - no it can’t be done. Great. 

 

I just wanted to understand why this was not a feature, because it is such a basic thing wanting foot access to more than 10 effects in a signal chain. Especially when the Helix allows me to build a signal chain with more than 10 effects in the first place. I still do not understand why I have to bend down, use the joystick and scroll to effect #11 in the signal chain and bypass it by hand instead of using my foot to go to another bank with effect #11 there. But I do not have to understand it, I was just curious. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if it is a CPU issue or just a design flaw.

 

datacommando:

“Now, it’s Saturday night and I intend to go and get very drunk”

 

I hope you had a great night. You seem to know an awful lot and contribute a lot to the forum. Keep it up!

 

“DunedinDragon:”

Lord knows those that have been around here for many years, pretty much since the beginning of Helix have suffered through a lot of dumb questions including our own in the beginning.  But I'm kind of agreeing with @datacommando that there's a lot of comments and questions that make you go "hmmmmmmmm....".  For example in this case my first thought was, didn't he notice there were a LOT less footpedals on the Helix than what he wanted to have active before he bought it? 

 

As I stated before, the amount of footswitches is not the problem here. The amount of 12 footswitches on the Helix Floor is all well and good. The problem for me is that the unit won’t allow me to toggle between another bank of stomp effects. I do not have to have 24 individual footswitches. The eight middle footswitches and the ability to access more effects with a second and third bank would have been fine.

 

Before I bought the Helix I watched 20 videos of it. It looked great. You could assign your favourite effects to different footswitches, saw people do it in the videos. I saw them go up and down in banks with presets and what was called “snapshops”. Then when I got the Helix I was like “but… is 10 the maximum of effects I can access with my feet?”.

 

Anyways, thanks guys for your answers. You have been very helpful. I’m going to deep dive into snapshots/presents and create a more sound/song approach.

 

December is upon us. Christmas greetings from a snowy Sweden.

 

Cheers!

[toddkc]

On 11/26/2022 at 1:26 PM, PierM said:

 

For stomp bypass and params, you can use non reserved CCs to command everything you want, via CC assignation or auto learn.

I never would have thought to try that, thanks dude!  MIDI Magic :)

 

-random edit also:  Am I the only one with no options for emojis?

Edited November 27, 2022 by toddkc

[HonestOpinion]

On 11/27/2022 at 11:25 AM, toddkc said:

...

 

-random edit also:  Am I the only one with no options for emojis?

 

Nobody has access to emojis. They used to be available on the forum years ago but when they overhauled the forum, sadly :-( , they did away with them.

[MojoAxe]

I guess everybody has a different concept as to how to use a modeler.  Myself, I wouldn’t try to fit every effect and tone into a single patch, so I would never have a need to switch 24 effects on and off.  The Helix gives you 1024 programmable patches, so why try to cram every effect you’ll ever need into one patch. 

 

My approach is to have five different general use patches which basically range from clean to dirty.  Each patch has maybe 3-5 effects within it that are assigned to switches to toggle them on and off. These patches give me a range of tones and cover 75% of what I play.

 

in addition to the generic patches, I have another 30 or so patches that are song specific, so the effects, tones, tempos, etc are tailored for the song.  Those patches also have buttons assigned for toggling certain effects as well.  
 

Personally, I wouldnt want every effect I might use within one patch, not to mention 24 buttons to toggle them on and off.  The beauty of using a modeler is that you can program one button to kick on multiple effects at once.  For instance for a guitar solo, I might program a single button to toggle an overdrive, an EQ, a delay, and a compressor.  The days of dancing around on a board full of pedals are in my rearview mirror.

 

 

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:19 AM, MojoAxe said:

so why try to cram every effect you’ll ever need into one patch. 

 

Because otherwise it's impossible to modify things globally.

 

Quote

The beauty of using a modeler is that you can program one button to kick on multiple effects at once.

 

That's not related to modeling, you can do that with analog devices as well.

[Kilrahi]

On 11/27/2022 at 10:03 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

Because otherwise it's impossible to modify things globally.

 

 

That's not related to modeling, you can do that with analog devices as well.

 

You CAN do it, but I'd argue it's far easier and faster on a well designed device like the Helix, and therefore is related. 

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/28/2022 at 6:53 AM, Kilrahi said:

You CAN do it, but I'd argue it's far easier and faster on a well designed device like the Helix, and therefore is related. 

 

I'd argue it's cheaper. But it's not faster and easier. At least not when you want the kind of flexibility I want in the way I want it. Which might not be everybody's COT, but that's not exactly relevant. Overall, the Helix is vastly more flexible than my current pedalboard - but it simply can't even remotely get close to the way I operate that very pedalboard.

[Kilrahi]

On 11/27/2022 at 11:00 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

I'd argue it's cheaper. But it's not faster and easier. At least not when you want the kind of flexibility I want in the way I want it. Which might not be everybody's COT, but that's not exactly relevant. Overall, the Helix is vastly more flexible than my current pedalboard - but it simply can't even remotely get close to the way I operate that very pedalboard.

 

I'd be very interested in seeing how you work.

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/28/2022 at 7:22 AM, Kilrahi said:

I'd be very interested in seeing how you work.

 

Nothing special. I just have a loop switcher controlled pedal board. Basically, it's 5 relevant loops.

1) Pre-boost loop. Mainly serving for lead boosts. I can preselect whether I want this to be a slightly compressed clean boost or a light drive or both.

2) Clean loop. Just a NUX Amp Academy and an RC Booster clone. I can obviously preselect whether I like it clean or with a little "hair" coming from the booster.

3) Dirt loop. An Atomic Amplifirebox set pretty clean with several drive pedals in front (atm 4 drives and a boost) that I preselect.

4) Modulation loop. Don't use that much, so I'm getting away with a Zoom MS-50G, usually I load 2-3 patches and cycle between them. So, just another preselect thing.

5) A "spatial" loop with an HX Stomp serving for all kinds of delays/reverb. Yet another preselect thing.

 

With that setup I can switch extremely quickly, it's extremely flexible and - most important, really - I can do global adjustments.

 

With the Helix, it's totally impossible to even get close.

[Kilrahi]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:22 AM, SaschaFranck said:

 

Nothing special. I just have a loop switcher controlled pedal board. Basically, it's 5 relevant loops.

1) Pre-boost loop. Mainly serving for lead boosts. I can preselect whether I want this to be a slightly compressed clean boost or a light drive or both.

2) Clean loop. Just a NUX Amp Academy and an RC Booster clone. I can obviously preselect whether I like it clean or with a little "hair" coming from the booster.

3) Dirt loop. An Atomic Amplifirebox set pretty clean with several drive pedals in front (atm 4 drives and a boost) that I preselect.

4) Modulation loop. Don't use that much, so I'm getting away with a Zoom MS-50G, usually I load 2-3 patches and cycle between them. So, just another preselect thing.

5) A "spatial" loop with an HX Stomp serving for all kinds of delays/reverb. Yet another preselect thing.

 

With that setup I can switch extremely quickly, it's extremely flexible and - most important, really - I can do global adjustments.

 

With the Helix, it's totally impossible to even get close.

 

Interesting paradigm. 

 

When you say impossible to "even get close" what do you mean? My first reading is it's impossible to have boosts, cleans, dirt, modulation, and "spatial" at the push of a button but since I've read enough of your stuff to know that you're as aware as I am that that's not true at all with the Helix -

 

Do you mean the global adjustments can't be close? What is it that remains out of reach for you? 

[SaschaFranck]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:37 PM, Kilrahi said:

Do you mean the global adjustments can't be close? What is it that remains out of reach for you? 

 

A) Having all those options within one patch. Would likely be less of a problem, but as said...

B) No global tweaking options.

 

The combination of these two is what makes my setup vastily easier to operate and adjust than any all-in-one-modelers. I could get closer with either the Axe FX or the GT-1000 (the only units featuring global blocks) but it'd still be more tinkering.

[PaulTBaker]

On 11/26/2022 at 1:03 PM, kaffekask said:

 

Yeah, I've thought of this. I'm gonna try this and play around with the snapshot feature as well. At least now I know that what I want the Helix to do can't be done.

 

This is not the end of the world, I will figure something out :) I have my eyes on a Custom Audio Electronics midi controller but maybe the presets/snapshots will work out in the end. Thanks guys for your replies!

Going back to your list, you may find that you are close to what you want. For example, your reverbs or delays could be combined where you have a snapshot or stomp change the delay settings so the act like two or more stomps.   Since you like one amp,cab that is the best scenario for having presets that are close but change a few things.   I found that I will have a basic amp cab drives reverb delay preaet then add different effects that would typically not be used together.  Not what you asked for, but maybe what you really want.  Good luck.  You really can't go wrong.