Tips for a full guitar sound in power trio?

[marmatkat]

Hi Folks. I've been gigging with an LT since 2016, but I've always been one of two "melodic" (I could use a better term) instruments, either another guitar or keys. Now I've joined a neighborhood cover band (no studio work, just live shows) where it'll be drums, bass, guitar (me), and a non-playing singer. By nature I'm not an equipment tweaker (more of a just-the-basics type), and until now I've made do with a small set of general presets (clean, crunch, saturated; American, Brit, etc.) with a few stomps that give me enough flexibility to fill my role. But with my new position as sole guitarist, I'd like to better leverage the Helix's power.

 

I'd love to get your thoughts on where I could stretch a little and apply the Helix to this situation. For example, I have a slight reverb on all patches (a recommendation I found here) but I don't use dual cabs, fancy paths (other than a continuation on the second line to get more CPU), multiple amps at once, delays, etc. Thanks!

 

(Note that getting a fuller tone is part of my strategy, with the arguably more crucial one being coming up with great arrangements, working closely with the bass player, soloing differently, etc.)

 

[theElevators]

I've played in power-trios for many years.  To fill up the sonic space you can use the freeze functionality -- it's great.  Many times you can do these "pads" while you solo. 

 

Then you have harmonizer -- also a cool effect to use sparingly, octaver as well. 

 

Then a nice delay can fill up the sonic space, stuff like U2--it's all one guitar.

 

As for the thickness of sound, you have the ADT simulation, it always makes your sound bigger and more stereophonic.  Plus now it's easy to have dual cabs, so you can have a big stereo sound.  For me, I often just use stereo ping-pong delay in parallel, not timed to the tempo of the song.  That just makes you sound bigger.  I also play a lot with contrasting sounds: very wet, vs. completely dry.  These sudden changes make your songs really interesting and diverse in sound. 

[Schmalle]

For an old school rocker like me:

Lower mids are what the guitar actually needs to fill in a trio.

 

Conspire with the bass player to create a wall of sound together. This means talking and exploring together what a band should sound like.

 

I'd focus on the core amp sound.

It should be a great crunch sound on guitar vol 5, overdrive on 7 and lead on 8-10, and edge of breakup on 3.

Alternatively shift one gear back (overdrive on 9, clean-ish below 4) and rely on an OD for lead.

 

If a simple chord with rolled back guitar vol sounds great without FX in context with the bass - rich with good sustain - then the next step is not to collide with the singer too much (treble vs presence trait off).

And for me the cab should have a o-vowel-ish sound meaning it should sit more on the lower mids and not too much on bass.

 

At this point you should be able to play a whole show with just that one sound and make people happy.

 

If that is done add bells and whistles, make stuff interesting and colorful.

[craiganderton]

I played in a power trio for many years, but took a somewhat different approach. I used a 12-string, but didn't double the top two strings. Then I could bend them for leads. The guitar sounded really full for rhythm, and the leads sounded like a 6-string.

[soundog]

Wait, what? A power trio with a fourth "non-playing singer"? Unless the singer is an incredible front person with a killer voice and also writes great songs....get a singer that can play rhythm guitar. Sorry to be so harsh, but pretend I'm your manager and want to see you succeed.

[Mako2112]

1) Run a parallel path with your amp.

2) In the path run a 10 band EQ and a chorus.

3) EQ out the mids in this path so the guitar is not so thuddy sounding.

4) Adjust volume until it adds some lively width to the amp sound.

 

You dont want to hear the chorus. Just get it to the point it comes in and adds depth to the amp. The sound should be larger and more dynamic now. Playing an E chord the high B-E should ring line rain in the mountains.

 

Running a Dist, OD, or Compressor before the split can help so the clean/chorus signal does not get too dynamic and loud if your amp tone is very compressed/gainy.

[HonestOpinion]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:23 AM, marmatkat said:

...

 

(Note that getting a fuller tone is part of my strategy, with the arguably more crucial one being coming up with great arrangements, working closely with the bass player, soloing differently, etc.)

 

 

Interesting topic. I think you nailed it here. The arrangements will go a long way towards making a power trio work. There is going to be more "space" in the music with fewer players, so use it to good effect. Space in the right places can sound dramatic. Listen to some of the trios you think get a great full sound and do what they do (with or without an additional singer who doesn't play an instrument), e.g. ZZ Top, Budgie, Black Sabbath, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, Cream, The Doors, etc. - your choices may differ. Sorry, all the three-piece bands that leapt to mind were old school. Might want to find some more recent acts that are taking advantage of newer tech. Work on the arrangements and the rest will follow.

 

Just getting a big robust guitar tone is a great starting point. Recognizing that there won't be any other instrument to reinforce your sound other than bass & drums. Any effect that adds depth such as distortion, chorus, flanger, phaser, delay, reverb, etc., can thicken your sound. Anything that essentially spoofs another guitar as @theElevatorsmentioned such as doubler, octaver, harmonizer. Running them in stereo and panning the delayed or shifted sound to one side can give the illusion of two guitars. Jack White made a two-piece sound huge with nothing but hairy fuzz riffage and an octaver. Looping, freezing, pads, MIDI triggering can all provide another guitar/instrument part. Tapping in tempos can provide a sort of call and answer vibe.

 

You might work your pickup selector, tone, and volume knobs on your guitar more frequently than you used to, for more variety in your tone. If you use a whammy, that can add motion as can other techniques on the fretboard. Although not necessary, anything that changes the tone, dynamics, tempo, or feel of the tune (you know, the obligatory reggae vamp), can keep things more interesting. Tell your lead singer to jump around more, you have less personnel to fill larger stages :-)

 

[soundog]

Good info @honestopinion. I guess I think of a power trio as three band members only. The Police was one the most amazing (and more recent) trios I've seen live. Andy Summers didn't play dense and heavy guitar, but the interplay between the three was amazing to withhold. Of course, Sting is no slouch. Or Stewart Copeland for that matter. Dang, also also saw Jimi Hendrix Experience and Cream live. THAT was dense and heavy. My ears still ring...

 

Jazz is a whole nutha level, but a reminder that the music does not have to be heavy or busy. The key is to have a drummer and bass player that lay down such a solid groove that the guitarist (or sax, organ, violin, etc) is free to riff without having to worry about "filling in."

[PaulTBaker]

Saw a local Jazz trio in Wrightsville Beach, NC a month ago (bass, sax, drums).  Very full sound, the bassist was the best musician I have ever heard, much less seen.  The way he combined chording and noting the bass was amazing... it sounded like they had a fender rhoads (sp?) playing with them.

 

So the point is that maybe the bass can adjust somethings as well, maybe incorporate chording at times, especially during the guitar solo's!

[theElevators]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:55 PM, PaulTBaker said:

Saw a local Jazz trio in Wrightsville Beach, NC a month ago (bass, sax, drums).  Very full sound, the bassist was the best musician I have ever heard, much less seen.  The way he combined chording and noting the bass was amazing... it sounded like they had a fender rhoads (sp?) playing with them.

 

So the point is that maybe the bass can adjust somethings as well, maybe incorporate chording at times, especially during the guitar solo's!

links?  sounds cool! 

[soundog]

...did a search on jazz trio wrightsville beach and found a local Sean Meade Jazz Trio (alto sax, bass, drums) but could find no audio or video anywhere. Would also like to check them out.

[Paulzx]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:58 PM, Schmalle said:

For an old school rocker like me:

Lower mids are what the guitar actually needs to fill in a trio.

Mids are a topic i always like to get in to, to find out what others are doing and how to get a really nice distortion but with depth.

They're always telling us that guitar is a mids instrument, which is true as we know, and to cut through a mix you do need higher mids

but what you've said about filling out the sound with lower mids is really interesting.

 

How low would you typically set the mids on a marshall tone - and are you dialling out the bass or leaving it in their on the amp settings?

[brue58ski]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:55 AM, PaulTBaker said:

Saw a local Jazz trio in Wrightsville Beach, NC a month ago (bass, sax, drums).  Very full sound, the bassist was the best musician I have ever heard, much less seen.  The way he combined chording and noting the bass was amazing... it sounded like they had a fender rhoads (sp?) playing with them.

 

So the point is that maybe the bass can adjust somethings as well, maybe incorporate chording at times, especially during the guitar solo's!

 

I would much rather see and hear a really good bass player over a really good guitar player. Maybe because I'm lousy at playing bass. I always play it like a guitar. Blech!

[cruisinon2]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:01 PM, soundog said:

Wait, what? A power trio with a fourth "non-playing singer"? Unless the singer is an incredible front person with a killer voice and also writes great songs....get a singer that can play rhythm guitar. Sorry to be so harsh, but pretend I'm your manager and want to see you succeed.

 

This... and they really should stop calling themselves a trio if there's 4 of 'em. The math is weird, lol...

[PaulTBaker]

The Wrightsville Beach band was called Fallen Angels.  The bassist is Taylor Lee.  I could not find any recent videos of him, but they were amazing!  Loved the way he chorded, double stopped, etc.... beautiful!  And a young guy at that :)  (Damn KIDS :)  )

[HonestOpinion]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:46 AM, cruisinon2 said:

 

This... and they really should stop calling themselves a trio if there's 4 of 'em. The math is weird, lol...

 

Absolutely! We are talking about a three-piece here, not a trio. Also, yet another reminder of why, keeping possible future band personnel changes in mind, if you are hoping for longevity, continuity, and band/brand name recognition, it is frequently a bad idea to incorporate the number of players, e.g. "The Troubadours Three", or the current lead singer's surname into your band name, e.g. "The Fred Smith Band".  :-)

[Adambomb80]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:49 AM, theElevators said:

I've played in power-trios for many years.  To fill up the sonic space you can use the freeze functionality -- it's great.  Many times you can do these "pads" while you solo. 

 

Then you have harmonizer -- also a cool effect to use sparingly, octaver as well. 

 

Then a nice delay can fill up the sonic space, stuff like U2--it's all one guitar.

 

As for the thickness of sound, you have the ADT simulation, it always makes your sound bigger and more stereophonic.  Plus now it's easy to have dual cabs, so you can have a big stereo sound.  For me, I often just use stereo ping-pong delay in parallel, not timed to the tempo of the song.  That just makes you sound bigger.  I also play a lot with contrasting sounds: very wet, vs. completely dry.  These sudden changes make your songs really interesting and diverse in sound. 

Where is the freeze function?? 

[theElevators]

https://youtu.be/EvcqULKNKgE

[marmatkat]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:01 PM, soundog said:

Wait, what? A power trio with a fourth "non-playing singer"? Unless the singer is an incredible front person with a killer voice and also writes great songs....get a singer that can play rhythm guitar. Sorry to be so harsh, but pretend I'm your manager and want to see you succeed.

 

I hear you, and yes, I thought something similar, but it's the singer's band, he is good, moves around a lot, and great on stage. Also, there ain't much around my area at the moment, so I'm going for it. Who knows how it'll go, but that's the nature of bands in my experience. I'm treating it as a learning opportunity (always). Thanks!