Latency Helix LT / Ableton Live

[poppa1]

Hello everyone, my English is not very good, but luckily there is google translator.

 

Windows 10, I5-12400, 32 GB Ram, OS and Programs on SSD,

 

I use Helix LT (3.51) with Ableton Live (11). Ableton displays the latency data.

 

With the Helix ASIO-Driver it's not possible to get better latency than 24.5 ms. 5.56 ms input-latency, 18.9 ms output-latency, 256 Samples at 96000 hz.

 

With ASIO4ALL I get 5.67 ms in- and output-latency, (11.3 ms) by 512 samples and 96000 hz.

 

Two questions:

 

Does anyone have an explain where the difference between Helix and Asio4All comes from?

 

How can I get latency lower than 10 ms?

 

Greetings Horst

 

[rd2rk]

On 12/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, poppa1 said:

How can I get latency lower than 10 ms?

 

Buy a better interface.

 

Helix as interface is perfectly fine for recording while direct monitoring and for re-amping into Native or other amp sim.

It is NOT designed for best latency when PLAYING through Native or monitoring live with ITB processing.

 

My Floor and HXS both get 12.6ms RT latency at 48k/64spls. That's the best they can do.

 

My 2nd gen Scarlett 18i20 gets 7.6ms at the same settings.

With that interface I also cut 2-3ms because I can use SPDIF.

 

Your LT (and most AIs) doesn't have SPDIF, so figure 7.6 + 2-3 for the AD/DA conversion at the AI + 2-3ms Helix throughput.

Net gain nada.

 

Also consider that I'm using a 7th gen i7 with 16gb.

With your 12th gen i5 you MAY be able to use a lower sample rate (16/32) to get lower latency, but 64 is the best my old 16gb i7 will do without glitches.

Also consider that my Scarlett is not the lowest latency AI you can buy, nor the most expensive.

 

A 12th gen i9 would do much better, maybe as low as 4ms. Maybe less with a VERY expensive AI.
 

How much money you got?

[poppa1]

I feared that.

Money is not the big problem.

 

I had considered buying a Mac (mini) for recording etc., but I don't have enough space for 2 systems and I have to use Windows (Home Office, CAD etc.).

 

Then I will probably have to buy an other AI.

 

The 18i20 seems probably a size too big for my needs.

 

Would you focusrite recommend e.g. the 2I2, or something else? PCI Interface, Soundcard with SPDIF?

[rd2rk]

SPDIF won't help unless you have the Helix Floor or Rack model, as the LT does not have SPDIF.

You'd need to do some research for a PCI soundcard, I've been using laptops for years.

TBH, your biggest impediment to ultra-low latency is probably your computer.

Why is low latency important? Are you planning on playing through amp-sims, as opposed to direct monitoring through the LT while recording?

[DunedinDragon]

The two most important factors in latency are your buffer size and sample rate.  The lower your buffer size and the higher your sample rate, the less latency you'll get in Ableton, but they will increase your CPU usage.  I keep my sample rate (set in Ableton preferences) at 44100 and my buffer size fairly high to avoid clicks/pops.  Since I don't monitor the output signal when recording I never notice any kind of latency.  To me the battle is more about CPU usage than latency since that's where you're more likely to run into problems particularly if you're using a lot of plugins in Ableton.  Some of your issues may be coming from your CPU usage as I'm working with an I7-6700 CPU running at 3.40 GHz on Windows 10.

[PierM]

Helix Drivers are terrible for LIVE playing, that's all you need to know. :)

 

I never use them as latency is way too high, even on top performance machines. I have few other audio interfaces (MOTU, Scarlett, Behringer), and all of them outrun the Helix drivers. Scarett is the one that gives me the best buffer/latency in terms if reliability.

As for the Helix drivers, ASIO4All to the rescue. ;)

[poppa1]

I think I'm beginning to understand.

 

I want to play backing tracks in the DAW and record my HELIX LT guitar sound on another track.

No re-amping, but the finished sound (with effects, etc.).

 

I would then like to listen to both tracks live.

 

I found a PCI soundcard with SPDIF, Guitar Z, Micro etc. input (ESI Maya). Would it be a solution to go with the HELIX into an AI -> via SPDIF into the sound card -> DAW -> and then also take the output of the AI?

 

Or can low latencies also be achieved with USB?

 

By the way: Thanks for the quick and great help. I'm 62 and it's my first time using a DAW.

[PierM]

On 12/29/2022 at 12:25 PM, poppa1 said:

I think I'm beginning to understand.

 

I want to play backing tracks in the DAW and record my HELIX LT guitar sound on another track.

No re-amping, but the finished sound (with effects, etc.).

 

I would then like to listen to both tracks live.

 

I found a PCI soundcard with SPDIF, Guitar Z, Micro etc. input (ESI Maya). Would it be a solution to go with the HELIX into an AI -> via SPDIF into the sound card -> DAW -> and then also take the output of the AI?

 

Or can low latencies also be achieved with USB?

 

By the way: Thanks for the quick and great help. I'm 62 and it's my first time using a DAW.

 

Your Helix DOES NOT HAVE SPDIF, so you cant use that connection.

 

There are many variables to consider, and these are different for every single machine, so we cant tell you for sure what it will give you a solid, low latency click/pop free experience. Latency is just the relationship between buffer and sample rate (this is a simplification I know), but there are many other factor to consider, that could make a great driver unable to deliver its best performance due other system bottlenecks (DPC calls, hard pages faults, CPU spikes, I/O speeds etc...).

 

To make it simple, I would just buy a cheap and solid Scarlett 2i2, (using standard connections, so it's gonna be Helix(A/D/A)---->Scarlett (A/D/A). 

 

That said, Im sorry, but I doubt you can go under 10ms for a complete round trip with all these conversions.

 

Another option could be Native VST, running on that DAW, and being processed by a Scarlett 2i2. At that point you'd get pretty much the half of the round trip latency at buffer/sampling parity, because you removed the first ADA cycle from the LT.

[poppa1]

Sorry if I sometimes don't express myself so precisely.

 

I know that the HELIX LT has no SPDIF. Therefore I wrote: Going with the HELIX - Output into an Audio Interface, which I then have to buy, and then with this AI into my PC/DAW. Too, I wanted to know, what is better: AI into PC via USB, or via SPDIF. In the last case I have to buy an AI with SPDIF and a PCIe Soundcard with SPDIF.

 

Originally I wanted to avoid VST, but if I understand correctly it seems to be the best solution.

 

[PierM]

On 12/29/2022 at 1:51 PM, poppa1 said:

@PierM

 

Sorry if I sometimes don't express myself so precisely.

 

I know that the HELIX LT has no SPDIF. Therefore I wrote: Going with the HELIX - Output into an Audio Interface, which I then have to buy, and then with this AI into my PC/DAW. Too, I wanted to know, what is better: AI into PC via USB, or via SPDIF. In the last case I have to buy an AI with SPDIF and a PCIe Soundcard with SPDIF.

 

 

 

 

AI and soundcard are the same thing, and you cant aggregate two interface without getting terrible results, especially on a PC (also not possible with native drivers).

 

You just need an audio interface with better drivers. USB is fine, just try to use a port which isnt part of a chipset hub. Not mandatory, but does helps reducing potential extra calls.

 

**Unless you have pro grade expensive stuff in mind, an Internal PCI-e audio card is a thing from the past.

 

[DunedinDragon]

Quite honestly you really shouldn't have any problem doing what you're trying to do even with the Helix as an interface.  I do pretty much exactly what you're trying to do every single week using Ableton Live 11 in literally hundreds of recordings with backing tracks and live guitar and sometimes with live piano and vocals using the Helix audio interface on Windows 10.  The difference being I monitor the source signal coming from the Helix, not the recorded image that's being captured in the DAW when I'm recording so there is no noticeable latency during recording.  Once it's recorded and I play it back it's all perfectly sync'd in the DAW.  You can feel free to chase after audio interfaces or latency if you'd like, but there are still going to be noticeable differences if you continue to monitor your recorded image when you're recording rather than your source signal coming from the Helix.

[rd2rk]

As long as you are not PLAYING through a plugin, latency is not an issue even with the Helix drivers.

Simply RECORDING the Helix over USB, while MONITORING direct (Helix to speakers) is the proper use of Helix and you don't need anything else.

Once you have a recorded track, any latency involved in recording additional tracks while monitoring the previously recorded track (still DIRECT MONITORING Helix) is compensated for within your DAW.

Again, you don't need anything else. Save your money for more guitars!

[poppa1]

 

I've always a second SSD-Harddisk with current WIN and drivers in reserve.

 

On this disk I installed first Helix and then Ableton live. Ableton displays the same latency times as before, but now I can run the backing track in Ableton, record my guitar on a second track (Audio to -> Sends only) and it's O.K.

 

I don't know what is wrong with the other WIN on disk 1.

 

I think I still have the incoming latency of 5.6 ms, but I don't notice that and it doesn't bother me.

 

Thank you all. Great support.

 

[rd2rk]

In Ableton, on the track strip there's a section called MONITOR with 3 settings - IN, AUTO and OFF.  If you have that set to ON or AUTO while recording you'll hear the incoming signal. If you're Direct Monitoring at the same time it will be delayed by the latency amount and at higher latencies can sound like an echo. If the sound that you're recording also has delay/reverb it might not be obvious. When DIRECT MONITORING set that to OFF. Playback will work as expected.