Helix Floor with Solid State vs. Tube

[elholando]

This is probably an easy and basic question for most of you.  I've had the Helix Floor for a little over a year, and I play exclusively through headphones.  I'm just a casual guitar player with small kids who take up a majority of my time.  I am however looking to start playing with some guys in my neighborhood and therefore need an amp.  All I have now is an old Spider II combo.

 

So my question is since I'm modeling anyway is there going to be a remarkable difference between a solid state and tube amp?  And since I'm just a casual player is it really worth the price difference?  I would likely use the 4CM as that seems to be the easiest.  As an example I'm looking at a used Marshall MG100HDFX.

[ricstudioc]

Well - on the one hand the Helix already models, in great detail, the sound and feel of tube amps.  If it didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.  So to just make it louder a digital amp would in many ways suffice.  For many years my stage monitoring has been through a pair of Class D FRFR cabs, and I've been quite satisfied.

 

On the other hand, there's never anything wrong (as a guitarist) with a nice warm set o' tubes.  (Well, other than replacement costs, biasing concerns, heat, etc)  There is, or can be, a certain organic quality from pumping the signal through a line of glowing hot power tubes, though as mentioned above Helix covers that quite well.

 

Sounds like it comes down to your goal - and budget.  Going 4CM is probably going to require a serious redo of your current programs, personally I'd just pump Helix through a straight up power amp - 4CM almost always implies you're going to use the real amps actual front end much of the time.  If you're actually just getting together with some friends in a garage setting don't know how much extra bang you'd get from tubes/4CM

 

With all deference to Line6, the early Spiders were not too highly regarded, at least as stand alone amps.  If there's a power amp in on the amp (or FX return) I'd probably start there - Helix right into that input.  No idea how it would sound, but you already have it, may as well try it.  (See Final Note Below*)  Might be surprised.  Or dismayed.

 

Are you aware that the MG100 is a solid state amp, no tubes?  But same thoughts - Helix into power amp/FX return.   A small stand alone tube power amp might be your most straight forward choice.

 

**In any of those scenarios you're talking about using a separate speaker cab, and need to remember that your current presets almost certainly already have a cab as part of the signal chain.  So you'd be pushing a "speaker" into a speaker - this has the potential to be a sonic nightmare.  You'll need to keep that in mind - eliminate the Helix cab, or scroll through them to find a Helix cab the matches well with whatever external cab you wind up using.  It gets complicated and can require a lot of fiddling around to find a sweet spot.  As I said above I've been quite happy with a self-contained Class D FRFR cab - just makes Helix louder without adding much coloration of its own.

[elholando]

On 12/31/2022 at 12:41 PM, ricstudioc said:

Well - on the one hand the Helix already models, in great detail, the sound and feel of tube amps.  If it didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.  So to just make it louder a digital amp would in many ways suffice.  For many years my stage monitoring has been through a pair of Class D FRFR cabs, and I've been quite satisfied.

 

On the other hand, there's never anything wrong (as a guitarist) with a nice warm set o' tubes.  (Well, other than replacement costs, biasing concerns, heat, etc)  There is, or can be, a certain organic quality from pumping the signal through a line of glowing hot power tubes, though as mentioned above Helix covers that quite well.

 

Sounds like it comes down to your goal - and budget.  Going 4CM is probably going to require a serious redo of your current programs, personally I'd just pump Helix through a straight up power amp - 4CM almost always implies you're going to use the real amps actual front end much of the time.  If you're actually just getting together with some friends in a garage setting don't know how much extra bang you'd get from tubes/4CM

 

With all deference to Line6, the early Spiders were not too highly regarded, at least as stand alone amps.  If there's a power amp in on the amp (or FX return) I'd probably start there - Helix right into that input.  No idea how it would sound, but you already have it, may as well try it.  (See Final Note Below*)  Might be surprised.  Or dismayed.

 

Are you aware that the MG100 is a solid state amp, no tubes?  But same thoughts - Helix into power amp/FX return.   A small stand alone tube power amp might be your most straight forward choice.

 

**In any of those scenarios you're talking about using a separate speaker cab, and need to remember that your current presets almost certainly already have a cab as part of the signal chain.  So you'd be pushing a "speaker" into a speaker - this has the potential to be a sonic nightmare.  You'll need to keep that in mind - eliminate the Helix cab, or scroll through them to find a Helix cab the matches well with whatever external cab you wind up using.  It gets complicated and can require a lot of fiddling around to find a sweet spot.  As I said above I've been quite happy with a self-contained Class D FRFR cab - just makes Helix louder without adding much coloration of its own.

Thank you for the response.  I've got a few follow ups :

 

- I didn't realize the 4CM would change the coloration or would require so many changes to my current tones.  I guess I need to do a little more research on the various methods for amplifying the Helix.

- Yes, I knew the MG100 was a solid state amp and I would us the 4x12 cab with it.

- "Class D FRFR cab - just makes Helix louder without adding much coloration of its own."  So from what I've read this is probably the best option with any modeler.  I would think it's the most expensive as well.  And from my understanding running it directly through a PA system is the worst option by far.  I was under the impression that you want to make sure you use a proper guitar cabinet if you're not going to use a powercab.

[rd2rk]

Some additional considerations - 

 

FRFR (full range flat response) is mostly a meaningless term - it doesn't exist ITRW. At least, not in any speaker that common musicians can afford.

Most FRFR speakers are actually just repurposed PA speakers such as the Headrush FRFR112 which is a repurposed Alto, and not even close to FRFR.

That said, the FRFR112 is cheap, LOUD and sounds just fine in non-professional applications (I have one).

 

Tubes vs Class D vs SS guitar amps (your spyder)-

Tubes impart a "warmth" to the sound, but also different tube types color the sound differently . The differences are most evident at high volumes.

Class D is pretty much flat. IOW, In = Out. Some people hear that as harsh or cold and that's why they prefer tubes.

Part of your sound is the amp, part the speaker and part the enclosure.

A guitar speaker in a wooden guitar cab will sound different than a PA speaker and HF driver in a plastic enclosure.

 

Your Spyder's speaker was designed to sound good with a variety of amp emulations. That's why it may be your best bet for you at this point.

Your problem there will be volume. For a variety of techie reasons, tube watts are LOUDER than SS watts.

You didn't mention how many watts your Spyder is, but IME 30 tube watts through a 1x12 speaker is usually sufficient for garage/basement jamming if you value your hearing. 30 SS watts might not get it at all.

 

The Marshall you mentioned might be plenty loud, especially if you're using the 4x12 version, but will likely sound best with Marshall emulations, not so great with Vox/Fender sounds. YMMV.

 

FWIW - I often jam with a guy who uses a 75 watt Spyder. We jam in a small basement and he's plenty loud.

 

Hope you find the above helpful.

[elholando]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:31 PM, rd2rk said:

Some additional considerations - 

 

FRFR (full range flat response) is mostly a meaningless term - it doesn't exist ITRW. At least, not in any speaker that common musicians can afford.

Most FRFR speakers are actually just repurposed PA speakers such as the Headrush FRFR112 which is a repurposed Alto, and not even close to FRFR.

That said, the FRFR112 is cheap, LOUD and sounds just fine in non-professional applications (I have one).

 

Tubes vs Class D vs SS guitar amps (your spyder)-

Tubes impart a "warmth" to the sound, but also different tube types color the sound differently . The differences are most evident at high volumes.

Class D is pretty much flat. IOW, In = Out. Some people hear that as harsh or cold and that's why they prefer tubes.

Part of your sound is the amp, part the speaker and part the enclosure.

A guitar speaker in a wooden guitar cab will sound different than a PA speaker and HF driver in a plastic enclosure.

 

Your Spyder's speaker was designed to sound good with a variety of amp emulations. That's why it may be your best bet for you at this point.

Your problem there will be volume. For a variety of techie reasons, tube watts are LOUDER than SS watts.

You didn't mention how many watts your Spyder is, but IME 30 tube watts through a 1x12 speaker is usually sufficient for garage/basement jamming if you value your hearing. 30 SS watts might not get it at all.

 

The Marshall you mentioned might be plenty loud, especially if you're using the 4x12 version, but will likely sound best with Marshall emulations, not so great with Vox/Fender sounds. YMMV.

 

FWIW - I often jam with a guy who uses a 75 watt Spyder. We jam in a small basement and he's plenty loud.

 

Hope you find the above helpful.

That's very helpful.  Thank you.  I'm realizing that the 4CM is not the way I want to go.  It looks like I could go with a floor amp like the SD Powerstage and then find whatever cabinet I want.  I'll just turn off any cabinet simulations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with that.  That combination is about the same cost as a Line 6 or Kemper power cabinet.  I'm looking to spend about $700-$800 so it's just a matter of which is easiest to get the tone from my headphones to a room, I guess.  I know it's never really that simple, but you get the point. 

[DunedinDragon]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:24 PM, elholando said:

And from my understanding running it directly through a PA system is the worst option by far.  I was under the impression that you want to make sure you use a proper guitar cabinet if you're not going to use a powercab.

If that were the case audiences all over he world would be in a revolt against anyone  using a Helix since most Helix units go directly through a PA system.  That's kind of what they're designed to do.  Going direct through a modern powered speaker is pretty much exactly the same as going direct through a PA.  Of course not all powered speakers are equal as you tend to get what you pay for.  As for myself I haven't gone through anything other than a modern powered speaker (mostly Yamaha DXR12 or QSC K10.2) in 8 years and have been perfectly happy.

[rd2rk]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:12 PM, elholando said:

That's very helpful.  Thank you.  I'm realizing that the 4CM is not the way I want to go.  It looks like I could go with a floor amp like the SD Powerstage and then find whatever cabinet I want.  I'll just turn off any cabinet simulations.  I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with that.  That combination is about the same cost as a Line 6 or Kemper power cabinet.  I'm looking to spend about $700-$800 so it's just a matter of which is easiest to get the tone from my headphones to a room, I guess.  I know it's never really that simple, but you get the point. 

 

Again FWIW - A speaker designed for use with a modeler (Spyder, Mustang, Katana, Catalyst etc) will be a flatter, more full range speaker than a traditional guitar speaker (V30, M25, C90 etc) and will likely sound better with a wider variety of modeled amps without the artificial highs of a FRFR repurposed PA cab with HF driver. With a flatter, more full range speaker (designed for modelers) you can often use a cab emulation/IR to good advantage. For instance, I'm currently using a Catalyst100. The speaker is designed to sound great with the 6 stock amps which vary from low to high gain. When I use my Helix into the FX return it sounds great with some amps, not so great with others. Last night I was playing around with the new Vitriol high gain amp (Peavey Invective) and decided that while the stock Catalyst wide range speaker did not sound all that good, the Helix MB V30 cab sounded really good through that speaker.

 

With your stated budget in mind, see if you can find a store with a good return policy that you can get a L6 PC112+ from. Some people have a real hate for them, some love them. I have a PC212+ that sounds great when you find the right combination of settings - turning down the HF Driver with IRs, speaker emulations that you might not think of (Celestion Blue with Fenders for instance), RAW speaker (it's an Eminence after all) etc. The PC112+ has all the same options as the PC212+ except stereo, and when configured CORRECTLY gets REALLY loud, but still sounds good at low volumes.

[rd2rk]

Just a note on what DD said - the "Modern" PA cabs he's referring to have built in DSP to fine tune the cabs to your specific situation and the room and are professional quality (as opposed to the cheaper Headrush/ Behringer variety). They are also in your price range, so well worth checking out.

 

OTOH, as I said above, depending on the wattage, don't automatically sell your Spider short.