MIDI unexpected pach selection in Reaper

[OmniFace]

I've got a little MIDI problem I'm having trouble with...
 

I have a Reaper project set up for the set list of my band. In it I have a MIDI track that is routed to my Helix Rack via a USB connection. There are MIDI items for each song. And within each I'm calling a preset via Program Change on the Helix. Then I'm using CC messages to select snapshots in different parts of the song.

 

Most of the time things work fine, but the Helix pulls up the wrong patch in the middle of a song sometimes - like it was sent a bad message and reverts to an earlier one. Or like the MIDI item in Reaper is programmed incorrectly (but I'm 99% sure it's not...). 

 

Anyone seen similar issues?

 

Not sure if this is a Reaper or Helix problem, or both...

[rd2rk]

I'd start by using a MIDI monitor to see what's coming from your MIDI track.

One by one, load your songs and run the MIDI track while watching the monitor to see what's being sent.

 

If you use a MIDI Monitor such as MIDIOX (free) that allows you to color-code the message types the errant program change should be easy to spot.

You can set MIDI THRU to ON and capture the track output that way if you don't have a suitable plugin MIDI Monitor.

[OmniFace]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:25 PM, rd2rk said:

I'd start by using a MIDI monitor to see what's coming from your MIDI track.

One by one, load your songs and run the MIDI track while watching the monitor to see what's being sent.

 

If you use a MIDI Monitor such as MIDIOX (free) that allows you to color-code the message types the errant program change should be easy to spot.

You can set MIDI THRU to ON and capture the track output that way if you don't have a suitable plugin MIDI Monitor.

It's intermittent to reproduce, so this is a fantastic idea!

[DunedinDragon]

I run all the MIDI stage automation for my performances in a similar way using Ableton.  The most common way I get errant MIDI messages is when there is a problem in the BPM or time signature (3/4 versus 4/4 timing) in the track being played so that the MIDI messages get sent at the wrong time or the track being being run in Ableton is the wrong track or wrong time signature for the song being played.  In my case it's pretty easy to spot since I'm also sending audio backing tracks, but the audio tracks will still play at the right tempo even though the timing on the track is wrong but the MIDI will get sent at the wrong time.  I could also see similar issues if the timing of the band's performance doesn't match the timing in Reaper precisely.  I'm able to catch all of these types of things when I do a practice runthrough of the performance at home.

The question in my mind is how do you coordinate (selection and timing) the Reaper tracks with the song being played by the band?  I could easily see getting the wrong Reaper track running intermittently as the cause for this type of problem.

[OmniFace]

On 1/7/2023 at 3:17 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I run all the MIDI stage automation for my performances in a similar way using Ableton.  The most common way I get errant MIDI messages is when there is a problem in the BPM or time signature (3/4 versus 4/4 timing) in the track being played so that the MIDI messages get sent at the wrong time or the track being being run in Ableton is the wrong track or wrong time signature for the song being played.  In my case it's pretty easy to spot since I'm also sending audio backing tracks, but the audio tracks will still play at the right tempo even though the timing on the track is wrong but the MIDI will get sent at the wrong time.  I could also see similar issues if the timing of the band's performance doesn't match the timing in Reaper precisely.  I'm able to catch all of these types of things when I do a practice runthrough of the performance at home.

The question in my mind is how do you coordinate (selection and timing) the Reaper tracks with the song being played by the band?  I could easily see getting the wrong Reaper track running intermittently as the cause for this type of problem.

 

There are some tempo markers in the project so that's a good idea to look into. 

 

The project is setup so each song has a region, and there are some interlude regions in between where some backing tracks will play and the guitarist can tune, etc. 

The keyboardist is using Native Instruments plugins to play through, so he has the laptop in front of him.  He uses the touchpad to move to each region, or the Region Manager to go to the start. Then he starts the song.  At practice we're repeating songs and such so he's frequently moving the cursor around.  At a show we would hit play at the beginning and just let it run.

When I've tested just running through the project things work fine.  But when we practice things get screwed up on the second or third song.  We play each song maybe 3 times and move on currently.

Edited January 8, 2023 by OmniFace
Added Photo

[DunedinDragon]

Yeah, I see the main difference in that you have it all in a single project whereas mine are in what Ableton calls Scenes so it's one scene per song, but the project can have multiple scenes as in a set of songs.  Each scene stops playing at the end so that's free time to engage with the audience or tune or whatever.  I then select the next song and send the MIDI command to start that scene all done from a Morningstar MC8.  Each scene in my case has all of the tracks associated with that song including backing tracks and MIDI control tracks, so they all have to sync to the same tempo and time signature.  It's not a problem changing tempos and such I just have to be careful about where I place the MIDI commands so they sync with the music tracks.  The MIDI tracks send an appropriate MIDI CC trigger to the MC8 during the course of playing the tracks which then can execute any number of various stage control commands.