ubiuankenobi Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Good morning to all. First of all, I clarify that I am an amateur in the use of the Helix and that I am studying a lot to achieve good results. I have a Fender Stratocaster American Professional and a Gibson Standard Gold Top. Unfortunately though, trying to simulate the sound of Gary Moore in "Still got the blues" and despite simulating the original setup the sound is very far from the original. What I don't understand is that if I use the Brit J45 Brt amp alone (that would be the Marshall® JTM-45) output from FBT J8A speakers with Mackie Mixer, the simulation gives me an incredibly muffled sound, with no color particularly with the Fender. I tried then other amps but the sound remained almost always similar. Only with Bass amps does the sound change a little bit . The strange thing is that in headphones everything changes. The sound varies a lot and you can hear it! The question is just this: why in the PA system are the sounds completely different from the sounds in the headphones? Of logic they should be similar but most importantly all the greats recommend using the Helix directly in the PA system! Is there perhaps some setting to be done in the Helix? I tried to be clear in explaining my problem sorry if I didn't succeed much. I am waiting for your blessed suggestions thank youI am waiting for vpostri blessed suggestions thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 The problem is not all PA systems are created equal, and there are some older and very limited PA systems out there. And the Helix is totally dependent upon the quality of the output device it's going through. In your case the problem starts with using passive PA speakers. The industry at large has moved on to using powered PA speakers on smaller PA's because it offers the opportunity to tune the speakers more accurately as it pertains to high and low frequencies. Passive PA speakers are notorious for having inconsistencies in their passive crossovers that can have a significant impact on electric guitar frequencies. These problems are typically not present in most decent headphone setups. I personally own and use a wide range of PA speakers all of which are powered speakers with their own built in amps and DSP circuits that control and maintain consistency in frequency response. I currently use Yamaha DXR12 and QSC K10.2 speakers for fronts and stage monitors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 How do the FBT J8A speakers sound with everything else? If you pump some well recorded music through them, does they sound crisp and clear? Or boomy bottom? Shrill top? You're not looking for a dance mix, you want as "flat as possible" with rich mid range. I have no experience with those speakers, but I see they have an HPF filter.... try engaging those if it's boomy/muddy. If the speaker is on the floor, lift it. If it's in a corner, move it. How about the mackie mixer... is the strip you plug the Helix into FLAT, or are you attempting to EQ it prematurely? Long story short... when using full range speakers, start with the "flattest palette" you can create, then shape your tones on the Helix. On 1/12/2023 at 3:44 AM, DunedinDragon said: In your case the problem starts with using passive PA speakers. I'm pretty sure the "FBT J8A speakers" are active. I have no idea of the quality though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, codamedia said: How do the FBT J8A speakers sound with everything else? If you pump some well recorded music through them, does they sound crisp and clear? Or boomy bottom? Shrill top? You're not looking for a dance mix, you want as "flat as possible" with rich mid range. I have no experience with those speakers, but I see they have an HPF filter.... try engaging those if it's boomy/muddy. If the speaker is on the floor, lift it. If it's in a corner, move it. How about the mackie mixer... is the strip you plug the Helix into FLAT, or are you attempting to EQ it prematurely? Long story short... when using full range speakers, start with the "flattest palette" you can create, then shape your tones on the Helix. I'm pretty sure the "FBT J8A speakers" are active. I have no idea of the quality though. You're probably right. I think I looked at the J8 not J8A. Still pretty rudimentary, budget speaker though made in Italy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiuankenobi Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 First of all, thank you for your answers. Regarding the J8A speakers are used a little bit everywhere, local squares and have a very good response. However, the problem arises precisely from the fact that while using a Mixer and the J8A speakers the sound comes out muffled a lot with mellow bass and midrange. I don't understand why using a helix amp simulator the speakers can't give that sound even though they are 2-way biamped Bass-Reflex system with frequency response: 60Hz - 20kHz and Digital DSP processor with EQ and dynamic protections for proper tonal balance and total protection at any volume. For example, the Red Sound LG12 SE/NEO has a frequency response of 60 to 16,000 Hz (+/- 3 dB). The J8A has a frequency response of: 60Hz - 20kHz. Where is the difference? Thx to all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 11:43 AM, ubiuankenobi said: For example, the Red Sound LG12 SE/NEO has a frequency response of 60 to 16,000 Hz (+/- 3 dB). The J8A has a frequency response of: 60Hz - 20kHz. Where is the difference? The frequency response is only part of the story. Do you see that (+/-3dB) after the Red Sound specs, where is that spec for the J8A? Actually, even +/-3dB is not very good, but fairly common. That means any frequency within the band can be plus or minus 3 db, that's a potential 6dB swing from frequency to frequency... not even in the discussion of "flat". Those specs also don't tell you how the curve has been shaped. Just because a speaker can reproduce a frequency, that doesn't tell you how the speaker sounds. On 1/12/2023 at 11:43 AM, ubiuankenobi said: I don't understand why using a helix amp simulator the speakers can't give that sound even though they are 2-way biamped Bass-Reflex system If the speaker cannot "accurately reproduce" what the helix is doing, the Helix cannot fix it. If they've scooped or even dipped the mids in any way (eg: hyped/contoured), you don't stand a chance. On 1/12/2023 at 11:43 AM, ubiuankenobi said: Regarding the J8A speakers are used a little bit everywhere, local squares and have a very good response. However, the problem arises precisely from the fact that while using a Mixer and the J8A speakers the sound comes out muffled a lot with mellow bass and midrange. Are you saying those speakers are used a lot in local squares? That's not a good endorsement :) As I've said, I have zero experience with those speakers but lower priced speakers are notorious for "hyping" the sound. I have a strong hunch that is what you are experiencing. IMO, I'd suggest you take your Helix into a music store and plug it into a higher quality speaker... a QSC or Yamaha. I think you will instantly hear a difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 One of the things you'll encounter if you look at the higher priced powered speakers is they tend to have selectable profiles. This goes along with everything codamedia is referring to which is the frequency response profile of a speaker, not just the frequency range. For example a speaker set to a spoken speech profile will have different frequencies accentuated and some diminished giving spoken speech more clarity and definition, but it wouldn't be optimal for live music. Without these types of profiles you have no idea what that speaker was designed and optimized to do. The most prominent example that comes to mind was the original Alto speaker that was quite popular in the early days of the Helix due to it's lower price. There were constant complaints by users of how it had too much low end particularly when used as a stage monitor. But the Alto was optimized for use with recorded music and therefore had more prominence in lower frequencies to "sweeten" the bass response. This became a problem when it was used as a floor monitor because doing so creates an effect referred to as bass coupling with the floor further accentuating bass frequencies. Other more expensive speakers had profiles that you could set on the speaker to designate it was used as a main speaker or as a floor monitor that overcame these problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiuankenobi Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Okay, I think as Codamedia says the best thing is to take the Helix to a store, try a Yamaha DXR12 or QSC K10.2, and hear the result. A question for DunedinDragon: but do you have a pair of speakers for each brand or do you have two speakers, one Yamaha and one QSC? And by the way, thanks for the suggestions guys.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.