Duo Acoustic Preset design - Mic 2 level issue

[themetallikid]

Ok, I have a preset that I use for solo gigs....so I copied and pasted it to another slot to use with a 2nd guitar/mic for a duo project.   

 

I have routing and all set up fine.  I'm getting levels, but they are drastically lower in the 2nd mic 'channel'.  I am running a XLR>1/4" cable.  Initially I tried running it into the Return 3, and using that as my input.  I got so little input, it wasnt even audible, but could see the output block lighting up green, but the output meter was barely being tickled at all.  

 

I tried moving the 2nd mic into the Aux input, but same level issues.  

 

I am running the Sennheiser 835 mic, and even on the XLR input, I'm still running +36 db to get a comfortable mic response.  In 'MY' chain, i do not run any other gain type blocks.  I run a compressor - chorus - LA comp (very slight to help tame outputs a touch) - Ambient Reverb.  

 

So here is my dilemma...with the 2nd mic, I have added 2 gain blocks (both +12db) and also the mic preamp block (level dimed) and I still need to boost the preamp's gain enough that it sounds like garbage.  

 

Am I missing something or am I getting the results I 'should' be with this setup?   

[themetallikid]

So I got them to 'match' better, but the airy response isnt there.  Level wise its close, but doesnt seem right.   

 

I added a 3rd gain block (all +12db) and also on the deluxe comp (first after the gain blocks) I have the level set to +9.0db.   

 

 

Is there a better solution...???

[kduck]

Not sure I completely understand your signal routing, but I'd stick a cheap mixer with a mic pre between the 2nd mic and the aux/return3 to boost the mic level before it hits the Helix.

[themetallikid]

Attached is the actual preset.  

 

Path 1a - My guitar (this path is fine, I use this duplicately in another preset for solo gigs)

Path 1b - My vocals (this path is fine, I use this signal path in another preset for solo gigs)

Path 2a - Duo (2nd) guitar - I did not get to compare this to my guitar preset yet (vocals were first thing I checked as I knew they would be the issue....but I dont aniticipate anything here I cannot resolve myself)

Path 2b - Duo (2nd) vocals - This is the path that I can't seem to resolve.  If you remove the 3 gain blocks (the first was a volume block like the other 3 lines to help mute signal between sets) and reduce the comp block level to a more 'normal' amount, you get barely any audio at all.  In order to match levels to my Path 1b signal, I need 3 gain blocks maxed out at +12db each, and even then the compressor level needs to be at +9db.  Level is there, but it seems like the 'feel' is different than my channel (duh, no mic preamp there, I get that)  

 

Just wondering if there is a better way in Helix to do this or if I'm hitting a limitation of the Helix in this scenario.  I feel like I've done this before and didnt have issues, so I'm not sure what I did differently before.   

Duo - Troy - E.hlx

[DunedinDragon]

Well the elephant in the room is the Return block being used for the second vocal mic.  The question for me is what kind of mic is being used and how is it being physically connected?  Clearly the difference is you have a Mic level instrument coming in at instrument or line level with no preamp (which is what you would have on a mixer and is part of the circuit for the Helix Mic input).  Have you tried using a Studio Tube Pre as the first item on the signal chain?

[themetallikid]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:54 AM, DunedinDragon said:

Well the elephant in the room is the Return block being used for the second vocal mic.  The question for me is what kind of mic is being used and how is it being physically connected?  Clearly the difference is you have a Mic level instrument coming in at instrument or line level with no preamp (which is what you would have on a mixer and is part of the circuit for the Helix Mic input).  Have you tried using a Studio Tube Pre as the first item on the signal chain?

Well it is a sennheiser 835, same mic as I am using into the mic input, so that makes it easy to compare levels between them at the same time.  

 

I agree, and knew, the issue was the mic going into the return.  I knew it would need to be boosted, but didnt think it would be so tough to get it to an acceptable level.  

 

I have tried all variations that I can think of to boost the signal.  I've tried the 3 gain blocks (+12db) mentioned, I've tried 2 gain blocks + boosting the compressor level, i've tried rearranging those orders of blocks.  I've tried adding 2 gain blocks and the mic preamp block (issue here is to get a matching level, I need to goose the gain and level and the gain block then adds some overdrive to the vocals and its not good.   I even tried adding the JC120 amp, knowing how clean it is.  I tried just preamp version and didnt get anything different, then tried the full amp version and it was better, but again still needed the gain blocks to get there.  

 

I swear I've done this type of preset before, I just cant imagine I would have set up the preset/connections differently.    I tried swapping it to the aux input, but I'm guessing the return 3 is the same as the Aux regarding levels.   

 

There wouldnt be any global settings that would change input sensitivity?  Not that I could find or remember right now.

[brue58ski]

I'm not sure if you've mentioned this but just to confirm, is your RETURN block you are using for the mic at line or instrument level. I would switch it to instrument level if it's currently on line level. That should boost the signal more.

[themetallikid]

On 3/3/2023 at 10:46 AM, brue58ski said:

I'm not sure if you've mentioned this but just to confirm, is your RETURN block you are using for the mic at line or instrument level. I would switch it to instrument level if it's currently on line level. That should boost the signal more.

That could be the issue, I'll have to check tonight when I get home.   I know i've used this mic/cable combination before with success, which is what is throwing me off.  I'm well versed enough in preset configuration to know if I routed something stupidly.  But I rarely check global settings as I just dont need to change much, other than what my volume knob affects.  So if your thought is the case, it probably reset with the 3.5 update and I just havent needed to use it since then. 

[brue58ski]

One of the great but also kind of a painful things about Helix is all of the options we have. It's great but can lead to finding it difficult to isolate issues. It's just something we have to deal with since I LUV having all of the options  we have.

[datacommando]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:15 AM, themetallikid said:

Path 2b - Duo (2nd) vocals - This is the path that I can't seem to resolve.  If you remove the 3 gain blocks (the first was a volume block like the other 3 lines to help mute signal between sets) and reduce the comp block level to a more 'normal' amount, you get barely any audio at all.  In order to match levels to my Path 1b signal, I need 3 gain blocks maxed out at +12db each, and even then the compressor level needs to be at +9db.  Level is there, but it seems like the 'feel' is different than my channel (duh, no mic preamp there, I get that)  

Hi,

 

Three gain blocks all set on max is insane! Even more insane is the compressor following those blocks is adding another +9db of level, but further along is an LA Studio comp that is backing off the gain to 4.5 while the peak reduction is set to 6.5. Huh? Turn up the gain on the LA to just above 7 and it should start to howl.

 

You probably have a good reason for setting things like this, but each to their own. 

 

[themetallikid]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:09 PM, datacommando said:

Hi,

 

Three gain blocks all set on max is insane! Even more insane is the compressor following those blocks is adding another +9db of level, but further along is an LA Studio comp that is backing off the gain to 4.5 while the peak reduction is set to 6.5. Huh? Turn up the gain on the LA to just above 7 and it should start to howl.

 

You probably have a good reason for setting things like this, but each to their own. 

 

Oh this for sure is not how I would normally have this preset set.  This was where I last saved the preset in an attempt to get the 2nd vocal to match level wise with my known good vocal Line 1b that I use for solo gigs.  Oh heavens no, lol.....that would be an audio nightmare there.  Normally I use the end comp to really only catch things as more of a limiter in a way, just the highest of peaks and the initial comp is set pretty lightly as well.  Just like what it does, however the level is maybe only +3.5db when I have it set where I like it. lol.   

 

The gain blocks and excessive comp block were just one versions attempt to match the levels...and to prove how extreme the issue I was trying to fix.   Its more than likely what was mentioned above with the global setting

[silverhead]

I realize I'm coming in late here, and I confess I haven't read the entire thread. But I believe I understand correctly that you are using the same mic model in both the Mic Input and the Return input and you are trying to get the same input level at the Return input that you are getting at the Mic input.

 

You might find useful information by looking at the Mic In Gain level that you are applying at the Mic input (see Global Settings). Does it stand to reason that to equalize things you should apply the same gain amount (+dB) at the Return input?

[DunedinDragon]

Maybe just a simple device like this might make things easier?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LittleIMP--whirlwind-little-imp-lo-z-xlr-to-hi-z-1-4-inch-inline-impedance-matcher

 

[datacommando]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:10 AM, DunedinDragon said:

Maybe just a simple device like this might make things easier?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LittleIMP--whirlwind-little-imp-lo-z-xlr-to-hi-z-1-4-inch-inline-impedance-matcher

 

 

Good idea - a Z changer is always a handy thing to have around.

 

Can't remember the last time I used mine, but I have had it for many years.

[themetallikid]

So I checked the global settings.  the Send/Return settings were all set to instrument.  The only other option is line.  Changing that doesnt help the issue at all. 

 

As far as that Z changer mentioned...  wouldnt my cable be doing the same thing?  Its a female XLR>Male 1/4"??  

 

 

[razorwit]

Hey, I just tried this as well. I don't have an 835 so I tried with a 57, a 58, and a couple of other dynamic mics I have hanging around. I'm running into exactly the same problem as you, and I think the problem is just that dynamic mics are generally pretty low output devices. 

 

For example, I just plugged a 58 into one of the Great River pres next to me and in order to get anything like a usable level on a speaking voice I had to crank the input gain to around 50db(!). Same situation on the API pres. Assuming the 835 has similar output levels as the mics I tried you're going to need to add a similar amount of gain inside the Helix, and I don't know that there's a good way to do it that won't sound kinda wonky.

 

Let us know if you find a creative solution for this. I'll keep my digits crossed for you.

 

Dean

[datacommando]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:25 PM, themetallikid said:

As far as that Z changer mentioned...  wouldnt my cable be doing the same thing?  Its a female XLR>Male 1/4"??

Nope - a Z changer is exactly that.
 

It contains a bit of circuitry (matching transformer) which changes the impedance from Lo to Hi. Your XLR is simply swapping the type of connection to a jack plug.

 

See this:

 

 

Hope this helps/makes sense

 

[DunedinDragon]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:25 AM, themetallikid said:

So I checked the global settings.  the Send/Return settings were all set to instrument.  The only other option is line.  Changing that doesnt help the issue at all. 

 

As far as that Z changer mentioned...  wouldnt my cable be doing the same thing?  Its a female XLR>Male 1/4"??  

 

 

You have to remember that impedance is really an electrical circuit issue which a straight through cable doesn't affect even if it changes the ends of the cable.  A dynamic mic creates it's signal by electrical signals being created by a voice activating a diaphragm which is a MUCH lower signal than one created by electromagnetic forces like an instrument.  You really don't see these Z changers used much these days since most modern mixing boards and such can detect the lo-z and compensate for it automatically.  Back in the day PA heads were often lo-z or hi-z for mics.  There would be different models of Shure mics that were hi-z and came with 1/4" cables and lo-z came with XLR cables.  We often carried these type of devices around so you could convert to different PA heads.  But for your application it might be just the ticket.

[themetallikid]

On 3/4/2023 at 1:01 PM, DunedinDragon said:

You have to remember that impedance is really an electrical circuit issue which a straight through cable doesn't affect even if it changes the ends of the cable.  A dynamic mic creates it's signal by electrical signals being created by a voice activating a diaphragm which is a MUCH lower signal than one created by electromagnetic forces like an instrument.  You really don't see these Z changers used much these days since most modern mixing boards and such can detect the lo-z and compensate for it automatically.  Back in the day PA heads were often lo-z or hi-z for mics.  There would be different models of Shure mics that were hi-z and came with 1/4" cables and lo-z came with XLR cables.  We often carried these type of devices around so you could convert to different PA heads.  But for your application it might be just the ticket.

Yeah that all makes sense.  I have experience, just not the knowledge to know why my experience is what it is.  If that makes sense.  I think I got it working for the moment, for going forward I"ll look into a small mic pre device I can mount under my board permanently for these types of situations.  

 

One last question....probably stupid...but thinking for 'band-aid' purposes this weekend.  my buddy runs a clean boost for acoustic solos, doesnt need much but it has plenty on tap.  If I ran mic - my cable - clean boost - Helix Return 3 as the chain, could that essentialliy do what the gain blocks are doing in the helix, it would just allow me to use less blocks?  I could easily replace his pedal in the guitar path anyway.....   Just a thought, more for knowledge than actually doing it more than likely. 

 

Anyway, appreciate the advice from everyone.