Can't tame the brightness...

[MayPRS]

... which is very strange. Take this video as an example:

 

 

I copied the exact same settings and I'm also using a Strat. He gets a very sweet warm sound out of the Helix - no matter what I tried my tone is always piercing and trebly. No warmth, nothing. It's driving me nuts - I spent a day trying to get a sweet usable sound and no matter what I tried it's always piercing and trebly.

 

The Strat connected directly to my physical amp sounds great and as it should.

 

Could you give some pointers? It's driving me crazy....

 

[waymda]

Without wishing to be captain obvious, if your settings within the Helix are the same, then the difference is:

 

• your guitar or something to do with input - not all strats are equal (not even close)
• your reproduction method/equipment; or
• a hardware issue with your Helix

But you've provided no additional info to assist diagnosis.

 

Indicating you have no issues direct to amp is comparing apples to igunanas and your descriptions suggests classic amp in the room vs recorded amp sound issues (apple v iguana). Taming the iguana requires thinking like a studio engineer - but your post history suggets you're aware of this so....

[Schmalle]

Global EQ?

What are you listening your Helix through - amp, headphones, studio monitors?

[MayPRS]

Yes - so: I used a HX effects and "upgrade" to a LT. For one musical project I connect in 4CM, using my physical amp and not using Helix's amps/cabs, just the effects. Sounds great!

 

For another project - I want to use just the Helix -> amps, cabs and effects, connected directly to FOH. No matter which amp I choose, it always sound bright to me, piercing, trebly and unpleasant. The same Strat, connected to the physical amp, sounds great. Both on my headphones and yesterday at rehearsal, at rehearsal levels connected to a mixer, always trebly and harsh, piercing. Even if I connect to a guitar amp (tested yesterday with one of the amps of the room), it sounds trebly. It only goes away once I bypass the Helix amps/cabs. 

[datacommando]

On 3/21/2023 at 9:17 AM, MayPRS said:

Take this video as an example:

 

As noted by @waymda in the post above - not all Strats are equal. Pickups and string gauge can make big difference.  
 

I didn’t watch very much of the vid, because in the first few seconds of him playing you can see his Strat has the Gilmour mini toggle switch fitted.
 

Not sure if that may be part of this difference in sound between your Strat and his. The mini switch wiring mod allows the combination of neck and bridge, or all 3 pups together.

 

[DunedinDragon]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:33 AM, MayPRS said:

Yes - so: I used a HX effects and "upgrade" to a LT. For one musical project I connect in 4CM, using my physical amp and not using Helix's amps/cabs, just the effects. Sounds great!

 

For another project - I want to use just the Helix -> amps, cabs and effects, connected directly to FOH. No matter which amp I choose, it always sound bright to me, piercing, trebly and unpleasant. The same Strat, connected to the physical amp, sounds great. Both on my headphones and yesterday at rehearsal, at rehearsal levels connected to a mixer, always trebly and harsh, piercing. Even if I connect to a guitar amp (tested yesterday with one of the amps of the room), it sounds trebly. It only goes away once I bypass the Helix amps/cabs. 

But you still haven't answered the key question which is, what is the type of output you're going to on your FOH?  They are not all the same.  Especially compared to what was used in creating the initial preset you copied.  If he used high end studio headphones or studio monitors to dial in his tone and you're going through a PA with passive speakers and a Crown amp and analog crossover you're bound to have problems.  And there's certainly no comparison between the response characteristics of a guitar amp and a modern DSP driven powered speaker.

 

What you're wanting to do is not impossible as many of us have done it for years and are quite happy.  But you must understand what you're dealing with in terms of output.  This isn't a guitar player thing, this is a sound engineering thing.

[PierM]

Post some audio. All this talk without listening it's just a waste of time.

 

It's like talking about the smell of clouds.

 

Sorry didn't want to be harsh, but you use a lot of words, without going into details (that matters!)...

 

On paper, a modeler will always be brighter than a guitar amp, even just because they are two completely different things, and one it's capped to ~5Khz, the other is capable of a full freq response, with mic response and room response involved. Plus there is the guitar, the pickups, your playing, the system you use to monitor and compare etc etc...

 

That's a lot of variables that can't be analyzed through words...so yeah, I'd post some audio just to understand if what you are getting is in the normal and expected range, or you are getting something weird that needs further "investigation".. :)

 

All I hear from that video is that his guitar is out of tune, and he's also adding a lot of extra dBs on the high side because he's saying base tone is too dark. :)

[MayPRS]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:44 PM, DunedinDragon said:

what is the type of output you're going to on your FOH?

 

A powered mixer and an Electro-Voice PA. But the same happens listening thru headphones and thru a guitar amp.

 

On 3/21/2023 at 1:54 PM, PierM said:

Post some audio

 

Sure - I can also attach one of the presets. I use the same "base" preset for all (meaning same amp + cab).

On 3/21/2023 at 12:44 PM, DunedinDragon said:

But you must understand what you're dealing with in terms of output.  This isn't a guitar player thing, this is a sound engineering thing.

 

OK so perhaps I mislead myself or wasn't aware of this - I thought that I could get a good usable tone playing to FOH without being a sound engineer. OK I'm not used to units like the Helix (with amp+cabs) but I do remember my old Boss GT-5 with "Cosmo" amps - I always played direct to FOH with a great sound. So perhaps I'm up to a greater learning curve than I thought - not Line6 or Helix fault but maybe my own.

[MayPRS]

And the thing that "strikes" in some of this videos... the guys add a amp+cab block, a delay or reverb and immediately sounds great! With room for improvement but usable. I do the exact same parameters and always sound thin and trebly to me. So assuming that everything is OK with my Helix, the problem should be my guitar or a cable. Thing is - the same guitar with same cable sounds good on my physical amp but perhaps the amp is masking something?

[PierM]

Yes, guitar amp (5Khz range vs FF), the guitar (pickup, wiring scheme, pots values, caps, strings, nut, saddles, frets etc...) and - last - but not least - your playing and touch (style, skills, pick material and thickness etc), can make the difference. Especially between what you hear on youtube and your own room.

 

 

[DunedinDragon]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:02 AM, MayPRS said:

And the thing that "strikes" in some of this videos... the guys add a amp+cab block, a delay or reverb and immediately sounds great! With room for improvement but usable. I do the exact same parameters and always sound thin and trebly to me. So assuming that everything is OK with my Helix, the problem should be my guitar or a cable. Thing is - the same guitar with same cable sounds good on my physical amp but perhaps the amp is masking something?

Here's what you're not understanding.  If you're playing through a physical amp there's no way it's going to evenly produce all the frequencies in an accurate representation across the audible spectrum of human hearing.  It's simply not made to do that, and that's why no one would ever dream of using a physical guitar amp for a PA with vocals and everything else.  Beyond that, if you stand to the right or left of the traditional amp it will sound very different than if you sit dead in front of it facing the speaker in the middle.

 

What this means is, if you take a mic to capture that amp, depending on the mic and where you place it your sound will inevitably be different to the audience's ear than it is to you on stage because they're using speakers specifically designed for all instruments and voices, unlike a traditional amp.  None of my presets are terribly complex, but they're pretty much usable from the moment I create them once I choose and dial in the amp model and dial in the cab and mic setup.  But I only listen to it through either my studio monitors or my actual PA speakers which are Yamaha DXR12's.  But I know that what I hear on stage from my floor monitors is exactly what my audience is hearing.

[datacommando]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:02 PM, MayPRS said:

And the thing that "strikes" in some of this videos...

The thing that strikes me about YouTube videos is the audio is subjected to compression and is generally bad.

https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/stop-listening-to-music-on-youtube/?utm_content=cmp-true

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

[MayPRS]

So... I found the problem! And it was the "Auto" impedance setting.... what I did:

• Connected the guitar direct to amp to check overall tone and sound;
• Connected to Helix in a empty preset - without doing nothing, there's the brilliance/trebly/shrill sound;
• Altered the impedance from "Auto" until I get the exact same tone as connected direct to amp - on the 90k region there's where it matches the guitar connected to amp tone. Actually until 230k sounds great to me!

[Paulzx]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:53 AM, MayPRS said:

So... I found the problem! And it was the "Auto" impedance setting.... what I did:

• Connected the guitar direct to amp to check overall tone and sound;
• Connected to Helix in a empty preset - without doing nothing, there's the brilliance/trebly/shrill sound;
• Altered the impedance from "Auto" until I get the exact same tone as connected direct to amp - on the 90k region there's where it matches the guitar connected to amp tone. Actually until 230k sounds great to me!

Interesting and well done for cracking it. I'm about to try and do some Gilmour tone matches myself so I'm going to try the settings in your video clip along with

the impedance settings. If it works for this it should also be useful for other tones

[PierM]

On 3/22/2023 at 12:53 PM, MayPRS said:

So... I found the problem! And it was the "Auto" impedance setting.... what I did:

• Connected the guitar direct to amp to check overall tone and sound; WHAT AMP???
• Connected to Helix in a empty preset - without doing nothing, there's the brilliance/trebly/shrill sound; CONNECTED TO WHAT? FRFR? AMP? HEADPHONES? FOH? 
• Altered the impedance from "Auto" until I get the exact same tone as connected direct to amp (HELIX CONNECTED TO WHAT??)- on the 90k region there's where it matches the guitar connected to amp tone. Actually until 230k sounds great to me!

 

This sounds like you were plugging your helix and modeling in front of a guitar amp...which would explain the shrill and the entire tone chase.

 

Anyway, whatever it works for you. :)

[Schmalle]

On 3/22/2023 at 12:53 PM, MayPRS said:

[...] Altered the impedance from "Auto" until I get the exact same tone as connected direct to amp - on the 90k region there's where it matches the guitar connected to amp tone. Actually until 230k sounds great to me!

What amp are you using?

Input 2 of Fender amps and low input on Marshall usually have 136kOhm impedance (hence this value is in the Helix's list).

 

You mentioned earlier that your guitar sounded great with your amp using 4CM - you didn't use a lower input impedance in that scenario, right?

[MayPRS]

Amp is a Musicman RP 65.

[Schmalle]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, MayPRS said:

Amp is a Musicman RP 65.

Read the schematic just for fun - interesting transistor preamp.

Input impedances:

1: 220kOhm

2: 84kOhm

Good ears!

[MayPRS]

Yes - and this why the HX Effects never sounded "perfect" for me. It was always on the bright side - I know realize that the HX Effects haves a fixed impedance input at 1M Ohm. And this was exactly my experience once I connected the Helix direct to my amp's input with the "Auto" impedance setting. On 4CM is not that noticeable (I use, for another project, a VOX AC30 in 4 CM) but, once i set the impedance to 90k on the 4CM presets (Vox AC30) I realize that there's a difference for the better! At least with my guitar and amps, it sound great using the 90K impedance setting, although in 4CM is less pronounced (can be also because the amp is totally different, but I think the AC30 haves a input impedance of 250k). I really discovered this by accident: I had the "First Block" impedance setting on the Global's. And I had a Deranged Master as first block but disabled. I deleted the block and once I did that, the guitar went bright and shrill! I then realized the Deranged Master has a lower impedance input and that "solved the issue". So it was from that point I start messing with the impedance input instead of just leaving it "Auto".