Ouput level affects both XLR output AND physical loudspeaker : annoying

[ceedjay]

Hi,

 

When setting output level of an emulated speaker it affects both the physical loudspeaker output AND the XLR output. This is really annoying.

 

Here's the scenario. You want to use the PC as your amplifier with a speaker emulation and get the signal from the XLR ouput to front of house with the speaker emulation. If you don't want to overload the mixer's input you have to lower the output level of the preset (whether you set the PC to output mike ou line level doesn't change anything). Problem : the output of the physical speaker is too low on stage.

Now, if you increase the output of the preset to have more volume from the speaker, the signal from XLR is far too hot and the FOH sound is distorted.

 

Same problem with the low/high cut. If you have too many highs from the speaker and engage high cut, then the sound in front of house lacks highs.

 

Why didn't they implement independent settings for the XLR output so that it only affects the emulated output ? The way it works is stupid !

 

Cheers.

Jay

 

[rd2rk]

The default output level of the emulated speaker is what L6 determined to be optimal for each speaker emulation to provide an even signal across the range of speaker emulations. There's no reason to mess with it. 

 

The Preset output (full gain-staged signal chain) is what you use to set the input level to the Powercab - the LED on the Powercab should be in the amber range.

That will also control the Output level to the XLR.

The Volume knob on the Powercab does not affect the XLR level, only your stage level.

If you have the input level set correctly (amber LED) and your presets are levelled, the Volume knob on the PC dimed will blow your head off.

At Powercab default settings the level to FOH from the XLR is UNITY - the level IN (the input level, amber LED, +-the emulated speaker level) is the level OUT, neither boosted nor cut.

The level to the board (FOH) should be set to MIC, as that is what most FOH techs expect and is least likely to overload the channel input.

 

Get the EQ set for your stage sound in your preset. Don't worry about FOH, it's not your job. If the FOH tech can't figure out how to EQ your sound for the room they're incompetent or their equipment sucks. TIP - If you're using IRs (vs speaker emulations) you can cut the HF Trim. That lowers the output of the HF Driver and does not affect the XLR signal.

 

TBH, I think it was a mistake for L6 to put Hi/Lo cut and speaker/IR level controls in the PC, it just confuses people. Yes, those should only control the Powercab and should have no effect on the XLR signal, but it is what it is and, as the Powercab line appears to be abandonware, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a fix or waste my time complaining about it. They don't care.

 

Anyhow, so you can prove all of this to yourself, I'll describe my setup and you can easily duplicate it with your gear.

 

Helix>Digital Out (Big Knob dimed or set to control something other than whatever output you use - that equals UNITY Out. If your modeler is not Helix then RTM and find out how to get UNITY OUT from the Output you're using)>Powercab212>XLR>Focusrite Scarlett 18i20>Reaper DAW>JS Loudness meter - use whatever your DAW provides.

 

With a Helix Preset hitting the amber level on the Powercab LED, using the Vintage Speaker emulation at its Powercab default Output level of -14db and XLR set to MIC.

 

The LED Input Meter on the Scarlett (set to UNITY - input level knob all the way down) is showing 1 bar.

The input meter in the Focusrite Control SW registers <>-14db.

The Loudness meter in Reaper registers <>-14db.

 

With the Powercab Volume knob on 1 (yes, ONE), my (industrial grade) db meter hung on the wall 12 feet away and off-axis registers OVER +80db.

 

CONCLUSIONS - the emulated speaker out level=the XLR out level=the FOH channel input level (in this case the Scarlett)=the DAW Input level.

There's no need to mess with the emulated speaker output level.

If your FOH tech can't handle a -14db level fire his incompetent a$$ or get him better equipment.

The PC speaker output level at ONE(1) on the Volume knob is frelling LOUD!

Your Powercab should EASILY be able to reach its specified MAX SPL.

That's 125db for the PC112 and 131db for the PC212. Louder than a dimed 100watt Marshall half stack!

If that's not loud enough I hope you use ear plugs! 

 

FINAL NOTE - Don't tell me the above is wrong without performing the test as described and start by performing a Factory Reset on the Powercab because NO, you DON'T remember what the default settings were. Just DO IT! The toughest part is getting the PC Input level into the amber - the PC input has a LOT of headroom!

 

 

[Fuzzystump]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:07 PM, rd2rk said:

 

 

With a Helix Preset hitting the amber level on the Powercab LED, using the Vintage Speaker emulation at its Powercab default Output level of -14db and XLR set to MIC.

 

The LED Input Meter on the Scarlett (set to UNITY - input level knob all the way down) is showing 1 bar.

The input meter in the Focusrite Control SW registers <>-14db.

The Loudness meter in Reaper registers <>-14db.

 

With the Powercab Volume knob on 1 (yes, ONE), my (industrial grade) db meter hung on the wall 12 feet away and off-axis registers OVER +80db.

 

CONCLUSIONS - the emulated speaker out level=the XLR out level=the FOH channel input level (in this case the Scarlett)=the DAW Input level.

There's no need to mess with the emulated speaker output level.

If your FOH tech can't handle a -14db level fire his incompetent a$$ or get him better equipment.

The PC speaker output level at ONE(1) on the Volume knob is frelling LOUD!

Your Powercab should EASILY be able to reach its specified MAX SPL.

That's 125db for the PC112 and 131db for the PC212. Louder than a dimed 100watt Marshall half stack!

If that's not loud enough I hope you use ear plugs! 

 

 

 

Oh my goodness, I'm glad I read this as I was perusing the board.  

 

Just yesterday I was fooling around with my recently used PC112+ purchase and going back and forth between it and my Catalyst 100. (Helix -> Catalyst via 1/4" out to the power amp in; and Helix -> AES out to the PC112+).  I had a basic amp setup in the Helix and noticed that utilizing the default PC speaker emulations they were set at -14db or so for all of them.  I had the Amp in the Helxi (I think I was using the US Small Tweed) set pretty hot, and did NOT use a gain block or boost the helix output in anyway.  To get a good sound on the PC (or get the input levels correct) I ended up boosting the speaker to 0.0db.  Sounds like if I were to then output my PC112 to a soundboard I would be WAY too hot.  

 

If I'm understanding correctly, this means I would need significant +dB in the form of a gain block, or the output block of the Helix to get my PC112 input into the good range.

 

[rd2rk]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:26 PM, Fuzzystump said:

Oh my goodness, I'm glad I read this as I was perusing the board.  

 

Just yesterday I was fooling around with my recently used PC112+ purchase and going back and forth between it and my Catalyst 100. (Helix -> Catalyst via 1/4" out to the power amp in; and Helix -> AES out to the PC112+).  I had a basic amp setup in the Helix and noticed that utilizing the default PC speaker emulations they were set at -14db or so for all of them.  I had the Amp in the Helxi (I think I was using the US Small Tweed) set pretty hot, and did NOT use a gain block or boost the helix output in anyway.  To get a good sound on the PC (or get the input levels correct) I ended up boosting the speaker to 0.0db.  Sounds like if I were to then output my PC112 to a soundboard I would be WAY too hot.  

 

If I'm understanding correctly, this means I would need significant +dB in the form of a gain block, or the output block of the Helix to get my PC112 input into the good range.

 

 

If you flip through the speaker emulations with the PC Edit app open you'll see that speakers are set to different levels. This is to accommodate the fact that L6 models everything with an ear towards real-world accuracy. Different speakers have different efficiencies, and this keeps the output levels <> even. Best practice not to mess with those levels. There should be no need to when using the PC+ with Helix.

 

The "US Small Tweed" is the Champ. NOT a very high output amp. I use a Gain Block at the end of my chain for a Lead Boost of +3db, then set the Channel Level so that the PC+ input is in the amber range only when I hit the Lead Boost switch. To get that with the Champ (testing for this reply) I had to dime the Channel Level. That was with amp drive at 5.5 - much higher than that the Champ's bottom end gets flubby.

 

In Reaper the input was hitting -12db which would leave sufficient headroom for post processing of the recorded track. This was with the PC+ Direct Out set to MIC Level, which is what most FOH expect from an XLR. If I was recording it I'd lower the Channel Level on the Champ to get <> -18db. See below.

 

That should not be too hot for a decent sound tech/board to handle. BUT... if you do get one of THOSE techs, keep in mind that if you turn down the Channel Level (or the Helix Output Level with the BIG KNOB - I normally leave that dimed or disabled = UNITY/0db Output level) to make them happy it's not going to kill your tone. That whole green/amber thing is actually about noise floor, not tone, and the Helix/Powercab s/n ratio is plenty high enough that the small adjustment you'd need to make is not going to suddenly introduce massive noise to your signal.

 

When you're considering this stuff you need a reference. All DAWs have Input meters, most have LUFS meters (google it). You never want the Input meter to get anywhere near 0db. That's DIGITAL DISTORTION territory. VERY BAD!. You always want to leave headroom for post processing. L6 recommends an input level of -18db when using Native, and that's a level that I've seen recommended elsewhere, too:

 

Recording Levels: Digital Recording | Should you be Tracking at -18 dBFS? (decibelpeak.com)

 

Hope this helps.

[Fuzzystump]

Thank you for all that information.  This is one of those instances that I didn't even know that I didn't know :D .  Guess I need to go "undo" all the amp models I set to 0.0db yesterday.