If you are interested in a possibly new Model to enhance real-time playing, "Sensor", please vote for my IdeaScale posting!

[syltru]

https://line6.ideascale.com/c/idea/85753

Thanks in advance!

 

An idea for a new Model, that could enhance real-time playing:

    •    It "measures" what passes through it (when is the attack / the overall volume), with a simple Sensitivity parameter, and possibly a visual indicator of the response to the signal
    •    You choose / assign the parameter(s) you want to be controlled by the "measurements" (from a list of the other Models in the chain, and their available parameters), with Minimum and Maximum for each assignment.
    •    It would also be able to "reset the phase" in effects like flangers when a note/chord is played
    •    could be named "Sensor" or "Detector"

PS: about indicators: it could be useful to be able to see the response of compressors in particular, in real-time when playing, while editing a preset on the device itself, like a HX Stomp...

[cruisinon2]

Raise your hand if you have no idea what this request actually is, or what it might be used for...

[brue58ski]

I believe the answer does lie in his post. What I think he is describing is, for example, it would sense when you play a note and could then trigger a flanger to start it's flange sweep from the beginning. So it swoops up or down exactly when you want it for one thing...I think. It sounded like the rest was basically using it like a ducker.

[DunedinDragon]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:30 AM, cruisinon2 said:

Raise your hand if you have no idea what this request actually is, or what it might be used for...

Consider both hands, both feet...and one other appendage raised.....

[DunedinDragon]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:42 AM, brue58ski said:

I believe the answer does lie in his post. What I think he is describing is, for example, it would sense when you play a note and could then trigger a flanger to start it's flange sweep from the beginning. So it swoops up or down exactly when you want it for one thing...I think. It sounded like the rest was basically using it like a ducker.

Well that's ultimately the whole question....he says this is a new "model"...the obvious question is, "a model of what?"  Amp, effect, air conditioning unit?

[kduck]

What is described in the post sounds (to me) basically like an envelope follower that could be used to control parameters on other effects.  Think mutron but instead of the envelope follower controlling the filter, it could control any parameter on any effect (drive, phase depth, reverb amount, etc.). 

 

Edit:  For the record I like the idea.  Basically would let you sidechain any parameter.  

Edited April 12, 2023 by kduck
add'l info

[themetallikid]

I think an easier approach to his post might be worded like this???

 

"how about a bypass parameter attached to picking dynamics?"  You can sorta do this by splitting your path and assigning the dynamic split....  you just can t retrigger effects like he was saying.  But you could put a phaser on that path only and when you pick hard that path is engaged???  

 

Otherwise, I'm with DunedinDragon...all limbs in the air like I just dont care!

[MGW-Alberta]

I don't understand.

Is it possible the OP wants something that can make adjustments to guitar dynamics related to touch sensitivity?

Is he asking for a model of "hands"?

[PierM]

What the OP is trying to describe is called Envelope Follower. An Envelope Follower will analyze the incoming audio signal and produce a CV signal based on its signal strength. You can then use this to trigger filter sweeps, audio effects parameter, etc. The connection strength can act as a sensitivity control.

 

In the Helix would be extremely useful for many purposes, like for example link your playing dynamics to a set of reverb block params, to reduce its presence while playing and push more while signal is decaying. You could then setup your own auto volume swell, or create an extremely dynamic tube behaviour etc etc...

 

It would need to be available as a controller, not as a block.

 

What’re some other places envelope followers are used?

Envelope followers are actually really common, but are generally built in to other devices. For instance, auto-wah pedals are controlled by envelope followers. Compressors effectively utilize envelope followers to calculate gain reduction (read all about compressors in our post about just that).

 

[Schmalle]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:41 PM, PierM said:

It would need to be available as a controller, not as a block.

I think the idea is: a sensor block as a sender (to define where to measure in the signal chain) and a controller as a receiver (to use it on any parameter).

[kduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:46 PM, Schmalle said:

I think the idea is: a sensor block as a sender (to define where to measure in the signal chain) and a controller as a receiver (to use it on any parameter).

That's the way I read the OP as well.  Implementing as a block would be pretty flexible.  You could put the "sensor block" (not sold on that name btw) after a compressor, for example, to refine the dynamic range of the input to the envelope follower.  You could put it on the wet side of a delay to use the delay repeats as a sidechain control.  The block approach would also allow multiple envelope followers at different points in the signal chain (dry input, effect output, parallel paths, etc.)   Lots of possibilities!  Also, seems like it would be pretty easy to implement for L6 since they likely (definitely) already have the envelope follower modeled in the various filter blocks (Mutant filter for example).  Hopefully it can get some traction.

[syltru]

Thanks for your interest, sorry for not being clear... Here is a condensed version of the idea:

 

A new Effect to put in the chain, that would have one Param: Sensitivity, and an editable list of assignments.

It would sense (= measure, as a "Sensor" ;-) the signal passing through it, and control any Param from any other Model/Effect in the chain, from the measured value...

Example signal chain: IN---[Sensor (Sensivity = 50%, assigned to "Phaser / Phase" and "Drive / Gain")]---[Phaser]---[Drive]---OUT.

It would make the Phaser effect, and the Drive Gain, "respond" to the intensity of the playing.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/c/idea/85753

[PierM]

Yes, it's an envelope follower, and using it as a block would be a waste as this CV is already available in the Helix, under the hood, just not being exposed for the user.

 

The envelope follower is just a control voltage signal that's composed by the top end of a signal level (envelope detector), and being used to control basically all effects that needs that CV, as compressors, auto wah, auto swell, etc etc... A Control Voltage is doing pretty much what an expression MIDI does, with the difference that the range it's 0 to 1, instead 0 to 127. 0 is no signal, 1 is peak of the given envelope.

 

 

Using it as a block means wasting room in the path for no reason, and also means you need one of these blocks for each effect you'd want to control. Isn't an efficient way to use a controller, that is virtually DSP free. You may think a block would be nice as you could put wherever you want in the path, but this wouldn't change much, as the envelope would be pretty much the same at any point, just with a different dB level, which is something you could control with a simple strength parameter.

 

All they should do is to expose that Control Voltage that it's already there, and put it somewhere in the controller page, and that you can use to link whatever parameter you want. Think it like an expression pedal, or a CC coming from the outside, but that it's automatically driven by the signal.

 

Then they can add a strength control for each connection, that allow you to set the ratio between the control voltage and the param change.

 

I'm not inventing anything, that's something used every day in any synth, or effect that uses the signal to drive a variable effect. :)

 

I think your description would just confuse the reader, and would make it looking overcomplicated, while it's extremely easy to implement.

[kduck]

 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:49 AM, PierM said:

Using it as a block means wasting room in the path for no reason, and also means you need one of these blocks for each effect you'd want to control.

True that it would use at least one block, but I think it would be possible to map the CV from a single block to multiple parameters, similar to what can currently be done with an expression pedal.

 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:49 AM, PierM said:

the envelope would be pretty much the same at any point, just with a different dB level,

I respectfully disagree.  The point in the path that you take the envelope measurement can make a significant difference, both dynamically and temporally.  The envelope measured after a compressor/limiter would have a different dynamic range than the dry envelope.  The envelope after a delay would be much different, as it would have the dynamics of the decaying repeats.  The envelope after an autoswell or reverse delay could be radically different than the dry signal.

 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:49 AM, PierM said:

All they should do is to expose that Control Voltage that it's already there, and put it somewhere in the controller page, and that you can use to link whatever parameter you want. Think it like an expression pedal, or a CC coming from the outside, but that it's automatically driven by the signal.

Definitely some merit to this idea.  If that CV was exposed on the output of each block you could have the best of both worlds (no wasted blocks and multiple envelopes. 

 

One consideration would be avoiding a feedback loop if CV from one block is fed into a parameter on a block earlier in the chain.  Of course, that might be interesting in some cases!

 

Just some thoughts.  Not trying to start an argument over an idea that may or may not come to fruition.

 

[PierM]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:05 PM, kduck said:

 

True that it would use at least one block, but I think it would be possible to map the CV from a single block to multiple parameters, similar to what can currently be done with an expression pedal.

 

I respectfully disagree.  The point in the path that you take the envelope measurement can make a significant difference, both dynamically and temporally.  The envelope measured after a compressor/limiter would have a different dynamic range than the dry envelope.  The envelope after a delay would be much different, as it would have the dynamics of the decaying repeats.  The envelope after an autoswell or reverse delay could be radically different than the dry signal.

 

Definitely some merit to this idea.  If that CV was exposed on the output of each block you could have the best of both worlds (no wasted blocks and multiple envelopes. 

 

One consideration would be avoiding a feedback loop if CV from one block is fed into a parameter on a block earlier in the chain.  Of course, that might be interesting in some cases!

 

Just some thoughts.  Not trying to start an argument over an idea that may or may not come to fruition.

 

 

As i said, these are not my ideas but just how it works. I use the envelope detectors every day to do these things, so Im just suggesting how to better propose the idea without reinventing the wheel. ;)

 

PS; position on the path doesnt matter as you can always just tell the envelope detector where to link, which means the detection will just start at a specific block stage.

 

PS2; if you dont want start an argument, then dont. ;)

[syltru]

Thanks for the suggestions, informations, and opinions! That being said, there is not that many votes on the IdeaScale topic...

In french, there is a saying: "le mieux est l'énemi du bien", a translation might be "improvment is the enemy of good" ;-)

 

[codamedia]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, syltru said:

Thanks for your interest, sorry for not being clear... Here is a condensed version of the idea:

 

A new Effect to put in the chain, that would have one Param: Sensitivity, and an editable list of assignments.

It would sense (= measure, as a "Sensor" ;-) the signal passing through it, and control any Param from any other Model/Effect in the chain, from the measured value...

Example signal chain: IN---[Sensor (Sensivity = 50%, assigned to "Phaser / Phase" and "Drive / Gain")]---[Phaser]---[Drive]---OUT.

It would make the Phaser effect, and the Drive Gain, "respond" to the intensity of the playing.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/c/idea/85753

 

Thanks for clarifying. In the studio and within most DAW's this is called a "side chain" and I would welcome it on the Helix. 

 

Right now we can do the same thing physically with an expression pedal, a footswitch or even a Variax control (tone or volume), but having it set to dynamics would be great. There is a Dynamic split... but all that does is introduce a parallel chain based on sensitivity. The ability to control a specific parameter in any effect of your choosing would be an outstanding addition for creativity. 

 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:49 AM, PierM said:

All they should do is to expose that Control Voltage that it's already there, and put it somewhere in the controller page, and that you can use to link whatever parameter you want. Think it like an expression pedal, or a CC coming from the outside, but that it's automatically driven by the signal.

 

Implementing it as another controller has merit... providing there is an easy way to assign a footswitch to turn it on/off. That is where adding it as a block would be a simpler, more intuitive approach. (IMO of course)

[PierM]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:19 PM, codamedia said:

Implementing it as another controller has merit... providing there is an easy way to assign a footswitch to turn it on/off. That is where adding it as a block would be a simpler, more intuitive approach. (IMO of course)

 

A block is meant to process audio and return audio. Has an audio in and an audio out.

An envelope detector is meant to process audio and return a control voltage. Has an audio in, and a CV out. Is a controller, not an effect.

 

Wasting a block for a controller would be a huge waste for HX users, even if I wouldnt really need it, as I have infinite envelopes available through the Zoia controlling my HX Stomp presets. Tons of fun and weird things you can do. :)

[syltru]

It would be a Block / Model that passes sound through without changing it (while changing what is going on within other Models!)

An advantadge is that you could cancel its "control" over other Models by turning it off with a footswitch.

[PierM]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:32 PM, syltru said:

It would be a Block / Model that passes sound through without changing it (while changing what is going on within other Models!)

An advantadge is that you could cancel its "control" over other Models by turning it off with a footswitch.

 

You dont need to waste a block slot just to turn it on or off, you can do it with commands.

 

Let's say you want to control a reverb with that "sensor"; you'd go in the Commands section, select a FS to assign then set the Sensor as command, assign the block to listen as audio, assign the reverb block and the parameter(s) to control, and the sensitivity. Done.

 

[MGW-Alberta]

Now that I am starting to understand this a little better it seems to me that the "sensor" would have to be a piece of hardware rather than a block, would it not?

I'm not yet sure how it would be connected but I suspect probably via MIDI.

I sometimes assign parameters to an expression pedal but I have to wonder if it's possible to assign parameters to another block.

I honestly don't know.  I've never heard of it being done.
Is it in fact possible?

Is there a such thing as a block that can act as a controller?

That's essentially what we're talking about, isn't it?  A controller block?
I don't think I've ever seen any other such type of block in the blocks listing.

If there is not then it seems to me if such a thing were even possible it would have to wait for firmware version 4 because that seems to me like a major revision to the operating system.
I don't know.  I could be wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time.

[PierM]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:17 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

Now that I am starting to understand this a little better it seems to me that the "sensor" would have to be a piece of hardware rather than a block, would it not?

I'm not yet sure how it would be connected but I suspect probably via MIDI.

I sometimes assign parameters to an expression pedal but I have to wonder if it's possible to assign parameters to another block.

I honestly don't know.  I've never heard of it being done.
Is it in fact possible?

Is there a such thing as a block that can act as a controller?

That's essentially what we're talking about, isn't it?  A controller block?
I don't think I've ever seen any other such type of block in the blocks listing.

If there is not then it seems to me if such a thing were even possible it would have to wait for firmware version 4 because that seems to me like a major revision to the operating system.
I don't know.  I could be wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time.

 

This envelope is ALREADY AVAILABLE inside the helix and used in all effects using the signal to drive an effect; Auto Wha. Auto Swells. Compressors, and many of those legacy effects that uses ECFs (Envelope-Controlled Filters). Calling it sensor just makes everything more confusing.

 

Let's take the Helix auto wah blocks. How does it works? A bandpass filter let the guitar signal pass only at a specific peak threshold and then it attenuates its shape above and under this envelope. Then they use the envelope detector (which becomes a dynamic envelope follower) to produce a control voltage from the top end of the input, this CV signal is then used to dynamically sweep the cut-off frequency of the bandpass filter, emulating the behaviour of a wah pedal. Isntead of your foot, it's the envelope detector driving the filter.

 

It's really easy to implememt. Line 6 just need to expose that same envelope for the user on the UI (imho the command area is the right place), and give the user the option to drive whatever parameter of any effect, using such envelope. Again, it's all there already.

 

[MGW-Alberta]

Yes, I already know that ... obviously ... but we're talking about something else, are we not?

We're talking about one block controlling another block, right?

That's something completely different.

An auto-wah is a single block and it does what it does within and of itself, as one algorithm.

To my way of thinking using one block to control another block seems like a next generation thing.

What the OP is talking about could be more easily achieved by incorporating this aspect into a new chorus or phaser block to make changes to phase depending on dynamics.

I'm sure it would be more DSP intensive but I think that could be done if enough people asked for it.

I just don't see this sensor idea getting much traction in the here and now.

 

Or am I missing something?

[MGW-Alberta]

And you don't have to use bold caps on me.

I can read and I'm not a child who needs to be yelled at.

Thanks.

[craiganderton]

I would love to see sidechaining implemented in Helix for envelope control over selected parameters. But I think it might be difficult to implement. Line 6 would have to decide which parameters in an effect should tie to the envelope follower, and each parameter would need three controls (amplitude, offset, and polarity) to tailor the response to the envelope. Many people already have a hard enough time figuring out what the parameters do.

 

In a related concept, several decades ago I designed a "Pluck Detector" circuit. It generated a trigger every time there was a rapid upward transient. It (nerd alert) used a floating threshold, so it didn't matter if the transient happened in the middle of a sustaining chord or started from nothing. The pluck detector then went through an integrator to smooth out the triggers into a control voltage.

 

The control wasn't based on amplitude, like an envelope follower. Its purpose was to control parameters based on the intensity of your playing. I used it mostly for delay, so that playing faster pulled back a bit on the delay mix to keep the delay from stepping on the notes. As I played slower, the delays would be allowed to come back in more frequently.

 

I also designed a set of pedals for a startup company that, uh, never started up LOL with a "listen to me" momentary footswitch. The pedals tracked dynamics, plucks, and envelopes, and used that data to create subtle differences in the sound that reflected your playing. For example, chorus modulation could be influenced by your playing so it followed what you did instead of just doing the "whoosh-whoosh-whoosh" from an LFO.

 

Unfortunately companies aren't interested in this kind of stuff because, well, most guitarists aren't interested in it. So I just end up implementing these kinds of things for myself. The Helix multiband presets pack was an exception - it made it out into the world because I was pretty sure a lot of people would like multiband processing. v3.50 is letting me take that concept to another level, so there will be more presets in the future as I get time to tweak them. It took me a year to to the multiband preset pack.

 

 

[cruisinon2]

To each their own, I suppose...and as grateful as I am for the tech that we all currently enjoy, the last thing I need is another tweaking rabbit hole. Once it starts to feel more like a science experiment than making music, I'd rather have gum surgery. Maybe it's me...

[PierM]

I still see a lot of overthinking here, probably because isnt a typical guitar controller but it's really easy stuff,

 

Just copy from Zoia and be happy, ;)

 

 

[craiganderton]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:44 AM, cruisinon2 said:

To each their own, I suppose...and as grateful as I am for the tech that we all currently enjoy, the last thing I need is another tweaking rabbit hole. Once it starts to feel more like a science experiment than making music, I'd rather have gum surgery. Maybe it's me...

 

The challenge is always how to make advanced technology transparent to the user. When playing the prototypes of effects that had the "listen to me" footswitch, all the guitar player knew was that the effect seemed more responsive. All the heavy lifting happened under the hood. It would be possible to make what went into creating that responsiveness user-accessible, but that would lead to a daunting collection of parameters, and require that people knew what to do with the parameters. I don't think that's what most players want.

 

I think one reason the multiband pack was successful was because people could just load a preset. Tweaking all the parameters in four bands takes forever.