Stereo FX Loop / Mono Pedals

[Ratch99]

Sorry if this is a basic ask.

 

I run a few pedals in the STEREO loop of my HX Stomp using mono cables. Most of the pedals are mono but the final pedal before returning to the Stomp is a STEREO Boss looper. If I switch to stereo cabling would I hear an improvement? (Looper is 32-Bit with nice drums hence not using the internal looper).

 

Also, what would happen to the signal when it passes through those MONO pedals (not even sure how you run stereo cables into mono pedals). 

 

The Stomp runs balanced outs into a pair of Yamaha active monitors.

[rd2rk]

If you're using a stereo effect followed by a mono effect, the signal is summed to mono. Depending upon the stereo effect, that could sound awful.

If you're using mono effects into a stereo effect, there's probably a mono input, typically labelled L/Mono Input.

Unless the stereo effect has a dedicated mono output (typically labelled L/Mono), the stereo output should be returned to both the Left and Right returns to get the benefit of the stereo effect. However, if you then follow the stereo Return Block with a mono effect or use only the HXS L/Mono Out, the signal will be summed to mono.

 

IOW - keep it stereo from the first stereo effect to the stereo outputs and use both outputs to a stereo board or amp if you want the benefits of stereo.

[Ratch99]

Thanks.

 

Basically, keep all mono effects out the path then. Have some old pedals I’d like to use but them’s the breaks I suppose.

 

Will have a dig into the HX for replacements…

[rd2rk]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:15 PM, Ratch99 said:

Thanks.

 

Basically, keep all mono effects out the path then. Have some old pedals I’d like to use but them’s the breaks I suppose.

 

Will have a dig into the HX for replacements…

 

That's not what I said. 

Mono>Mono>Stereo>Mono = Mono

Mono>Stereo>Mono>Stereo = Stereo, but your first stereo effect is being summed to mono by the second mono effect.

 

Most Helix FX have both a mono and a stereo version.

If you're sending your signal to the Return of a guitar amp, you want to use mono FX throughout.

If you're sending your signal to a stereo rig (your stereo monitors, just make sure that you don't use anything mono after a stereo effect.

[Ratch99]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:28 AM, rd2rk said:

 

If you're sending your signal to a stereo rig (your stereo monitors, just make sure that you don't use anything mono after a stereo effect.

 

How can a stereo effect remain stereo after a mono pedal if mono pedals cannot accommodate / pass through a stereo cable / signal?

[rd2rk]

On 4/24/2023 at 12:27 AM, Ratch99 said:

 

How can a stereo effect remain stereo after a mono pedal if mono pedals cannot accommodate / pass through a stereo cable / signal?

 

Exactly.

 

"If you're sending your signal to a stereo rig (your stereo monitors), just make sure that you don't use anything mono after a stereo effect."

"If you're sending your signal to the Return of a guitar amp, you want to use mono FX throughout."

"Mono>Mono>Stereo>Mono = Mono

Mono>Stereo>Mono>Stereo = Stereo, but your first stereo effect is being summed to mono by the second mono effect."

[brue58ski]

Pay attention to the above post. Any mono effect negates the stereo effect when it's put after a stereo effect. It sums the output of the stereo effect to mono. That's if it even has two inputs. No stereo chorus, no ping pong delay, etc if there is a mono effect after either these. It does not have to be right after the effect. Just anyplace after it.

[MayPRS]

On the same subject but slightly different issue/discovery I made: I ran my Helix in 4CM with one amp. I setup'd the Helix using the stereo versions of all effects when needed, thinking that they would just sound like the mono versions, since I'm using the L output only. I was totally wrong. When I start changing the blocks for the mono versions (I did this with all blocks except one where I need a Dual Delay and that's only offered in stereo version), the sound is much more dynamic and present, more defined.

 

I don't know if the Helix was designed to work like this, but I always thought that using stereo blocks panned to center, would sound the same as the mono blocks, but they don't. 

[rd2rk]

On 4/26/2023 at 4:33 AM, MayPRS said:

On the same subject but slightly different issue/discovery I made: I ran my Helix in 4CM with one amp. I setup'd the Helix using the stereo versions of all effects when needed, thinking that they would just sound like the mono versions, since I'm using the L output only. I was totally wrong. When I start changing the blocks for the mono versions (I did this with all blocks except one where I need a Dual Delay and that's only offered in stereo version), the sound is much more dynamic and present, more defined.

 

I don't know if the Helix was designed to work like this, but I always thought that using stereo blocks panned to center, would sound the same as the mono blocks, but they don't. 

 

Not that Helix was DESIGNED to work that way, just that, from the inception of stereo, summing to mono never sounded "right".

There's no doubt a technical explanation involving phasing and whatnot, but THAT'S the reason there's both mono and stereo versions of the FX.

[MayPRS]

On 4/26/2023 at 4:44 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Not that Helix was DESIGNED to work that way, just that, from the inception of stereo, summing to mono never sounded "right".

There's no doubt a technical explanation involving phasing and whatnot, but THAT'S the reason there's both mono and stereo versions of the FX.

 

Thanks for the info. By the way - how can I replace the Dual Delay for two blocks of mono delays, without any of them affect each other? I tested putting them on different paths (Path 1A and Path 1B) but I cannot make the volume for both to sound exactly the same. I want the two single repeats to come out at the same volume as my played note/chord. Any ideas? I tested different paths, etc. I need two repeats (one at 800 ms and one at 1600 ms).

[rd2rk]

No clue.

I tried the Dual Delay summed to mono through my Catalyst.

Setting the Spread to zero and matching the mixes of the delays, it sounded good to me, but I don't know what you're after, so...

 

From "The Big Book of Helix Tips and Tricks":

 

Spread. With modulation blocks, Spread alters the modulation’s phase relationship between the left and right channels. At 0.0, the modulation signals are in phase. At 10, the modulation signals are 180 degrees out of phase. At 5.0, they’re 90 degrees out of phase. In simpler terms, higher values increase a stereo image’s width, so it covers a wider range between the stereo images’s left and right extremes.

 

 

Lots of good stuff in there, a worthwhile purchase (get it at Sweetwater).

 

[Ratch99]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:09 AM, rd2rk said:

"If you're sending your signal to a stereo rig (your stereo monitors), just make sure that you don't use anything mono after a stereo effect."

"If you're sending your signal to the Return of a guitar amp, you want to use mono FX throughout."

 

This was clear but still a tad confused about all this in the context of the STOMP. Can you shed any light on the below:

HX STOMP STEREO FX OUT > MONO AUTOWAH > STEREO LOOPER > HX STOMP STEREO FX RETURN

 

Specifically, would a MONO pedal sum down any effects the HX STOMP sends it it? Or is it smart enough to only send a clean signal out for that one pedal? Or does it depend where you put the FX LOOP BLOCK in the STOMP signal chain?

[rd2rk]

Does your mono auto wah have a stereo input (separate L/R or single TRS)? if not, how can you send it a stereo signal?

 

If you send a mono signal to a stereo looper L/R input, you'll just get dual mono out of the looper, as it is simply a recorder, not an FX PROCESSOR (unless it is).

 

Dual mono DOES NOT equal Stereo. Dual mono is simply two identical signals.

STEREO is a signal that's PROCESSED to send different signals on discrete left and right channels.

If you send mono or dual mono into a STEREO EFFECT, the output of the effect will be stereo.

 

To send a stereo signal you need a Stereo FX Loop Block and a 1/4" Male TRS in the SEND.

To keep it Stereo anything between the SEND and RETURNS needs to be Stereo.

This usually requires that the male TRS be split into dual TS (male or female as required).

The last device before the RETURNS needs to be Stereo so it's L and R outs can be connected to the HXS L and R RETURNS.

Stereo FX>Stereo Send>mono whatever = mono

Mono FX>Stereo Send = dual mono>stereo FX = stereo 

A stereo device splits a mono signal L/R. A mono device sums a stereo signal to mono.

This is ALWAYS true, regardless of where in the signal chain you place the S/R Block.

 

If you place a FX Send L block after a stereo effect, the SEND TIP signal will carry the L signal, NO signal on the RING.

No R signal reaches the SEND.

If you place a FX Send R Block after a stereo effect, the SEND RING signal will carry the R signal, NO signal on the TIP.

No L signal reaches the SEND.

This is how you do 4cm with stereo amps.

 

Is it smart enough to... NO, it's really dumb. It's totally on you to configure the routing.

[Ratch99]

From the HX I'm using a single Stereo 1/4" that splits to dual 1/4" into STEREO (L&R) looper inputs, generating STEREO drums etc. It's clear now that I can't use my Mono Wah pedal in this chain in any way without summing the primary HX STOMP signal to MONO, given the looper must come last.

 

If I place the FX BLOCK (thus the looper / wah) in the HX STOMP before any HX effects blocks, those will then effect the drums which is not desirable.

[datacommando]

On 5/1/2023 at 11:27 AM, Ratch99 said:

From the HX I'm using a single Stereo 1/4" that splits to dual 1/4" into STEREO (L&R) looper inputs, generating STEREO drums etc. It's clear now that I can't use my Mono Wah pedal in this chain in any way without summing the primary HX STOMP signal to MONO, given the looper must come last.

 

If I place the FX BLOCK (thus the looper / wah) in the HX STOMP before any HX effects blocks, those will then effect the drums which is not desirable.

Hi,

 

I have several different external loopers that I can use with my Helix floor, one of which is a Boss RC30 with the built in drums. Never had any issues with patching this in.

 

Stick an FX Loop block at the end of the signal chain. This will feed a fully processed stereo signal from your guitar for you to capture in the Boss. The resulting loop and drum backing will return into the HX Stomp and with no other effects added is sent out to your Yamaha monitors.

 

If you wish to leave out certain elements of what is fed into the looper use footswitches to turn on/off as needed. If you feel you want to add a touch of reverb to the loop return, either add a reverb block or move the return before it.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

EDIT:

Someone asked about this sort of thing previously and I put together a preset that he could edit, but it was for Helix floor. Here's one you can play around with in your HX Stomp. Modify to suit your rig.

 

 

Boss RC30 Stomp.hlx

[Ratch99]

Think the answer I was looking for was just put the MONO WAH (or any mono effects) in front of the HX STOMP - problem solved.

[datacommando]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:45 PM, Ratch99 said:

Think the answer I was looking for was just put the MONO WAH (or any mono effects) in front of the HX STOMP - problem solved.

Yep, don’t overthink it!