Do You Have The Same Problem With 6th String?

[MiroslavKloud]

Everyone is using the same firmware. Everyone has a different physical guitar. 

 

This is precisely the whole problem

A different physical guitar -  a different intensity, maybe a little different frequencies of the longitudinal wave.

And the same firmware. This can not function.

 

psarkissian,

 

" haven't solved the problem, but only masked it."

Yes! The A5 input masked the problem of string A5. If is E6 piezo connected to A5 input, then is masked a problem of E6. But E6 input does not masked it. It is fault.

[psarkissian]

Since the the bridge was replaced and the problem still exists, then it's

upstream from the piezos. Which goes back to my previous list of possible

mechanicals involved,...

 

In the mechanical aspects,...

-Could be the strings,

-if the butt end is not snug in,

-or not tight at the tuning post,

-breaking angle of the string from the nut to the post,

-the nut slots,

-fret buzz,...

-any mechanical buzz will come out of the electronics as distortion (amplitude

or frequency).

-Pick-up height not set correctly, induces warbling, which induces

a host of other related audio artifacts into the final signal.

-Set up, something may need to be dialed in a smidgen.

 

Swapping piezo wires takes you down a blind alley that goes nowhere,

beyond checking a couple things that has nothing to do with the source.

It just amplifies it. It's a nice test, but it just shows that it's not the piezo.

If it was the piezo the problem would be gone after the bridge was replaced.

 

 

Hmmm,... wave sources,...  just out of curiosity, can you do photo of how

the strings are tied off at the tuning posts? Also how the strings are fed thru

the the nut slots. It's rare, but I want to check something. Something I've

come across only a few rare occasions. And remind me again what Brand

and gauge set your string are? What is the action height (in millimeters)

of string E6 at fret-12?

[MiroslavKloud]

Posted by Line6DP

What is clang-tone? Clang-tone, or wolf tone, is a sound inherent in a vibrating string. A string vibrates in three modes: Torsional, Longitudinal, and Transverse. Torsional vibration does not produce a sound wave – it is the string just twisting like a drive shaft in a car. Longitudinal vibration is what the magnetic pickups on a guitar are “hearing†and reproducing. Transverse vibration is a wave going up and down the string as it is stretches and relaxes longitudinally. Magnetic pickups do not reproduce Transverse vibration, but it is the type of vibration that a piezo pickup “hears,†and it produces the clang. Some describe its sound as a “ping†or “plink.†It is there even on acoustic guitars.

Numerous times Lloyd and his crew met with a Line 6 team that included Line 6 co-founder and chief technology officer, Michel Doidic. We showed Lloyd and his people what we were up against and they took the bull by the horns to help us tackle it. They did a great job. Between Lloyd and Michel’s work on the clang-tone issue, and some slick DSP algorithms by our engineering and sound design guys, clang-tone has been essentially eliminated. (Big kudos to Lloyd and Michel for spearheading this.)

Thanks to clay-man for finding

[cruisinon2]

Still, need to find the source and not the affect. And that's upstream of the piezo,

not downstream. If it were the piezo, the problem would've gone away when the

bridge was replaced.

 

OK, fine. The problem couldn't possibly reside "downstream" in the bowels of the electronics. Don't know what I was thinking. And for God's sake let's not examine all the possibilities...that might lead to progress. Just go with the assumption that the problem couldn't possibly be after the piezo.

 

To the OP, you'll be happy to know that your guitar is actually fine. It's your head that's vibrating funny...run full speed into a brick wall, maybe it'll jog something loose. ;)

[magik570]

My apology for this irrelevant post/reply... (new user) not able to start a new post, why? Signed in.. and I am able to reply to a post. 

[psarkissian]

The "clang tone" post would be useful if all the piezos had that problem.

The electronics downstream of the piezo and the piezos (ie- replacing the
the bridge) have been replaced, so that possibility has been eliminated.

 

If it were a piezo, then replacing the bridge would've fix it, wouldn't it? If it

were this clang tone, all piezos on all guitars that use these piezos (ours or

anyone else's) would exhibit this problem, wouldn't it? So those possibilities

are eliminated.


(from my prior post)
Hmmm,... wave sources,... just out of curiosity, can you do photo of how
the strings are tied off at the tuning posts? Also how the strings are fed thru
the the nut slots. It's rare, but I want to check something. Something I've
come across only a few rare occasions. And remind me again what Brand
and gauge set your string are? What is the action height (in millimeters)
of string E6 at fret-12? ... since we're looking at possibilities, I'd like to cross
these off my list. 

 

 

[MiroslavKloud]

cruisinon2  :D

 

psarkissian,

my strings is D'Addario EXL110.

I auditioned also GHS 10-46, it was the same.

The action height of string E6 at fret-12 is 2mm.

One information that worthy of consideration:

The bridge was replaced by from other guitar in the shop. Maybe the same production series of the bridge.

 

"The "clang tone" post would be useful if all the piezos had that problem."  No. It is an accurate description of the problem.

I think you'd better contact "your engineering and sound design guys and also Lloyd and Michel."

[psarkissian]

Factory string set,... good.

Nut looks okay.

Tuning post retainer nuts look snug.

Breaking angle between the nut and tuning posts, hard to tell, but looks okay from this angle.

Action is good. 

Button ends and winding of the string at the bridge looks snug.

E6 end looks like it's clear of the A5, so I would expect no extraneous vibrations there, might want to keep an eye on it just the same that they don't touch.

The Velcro is a nice addition.

 

Also, regarding flat picks,... soft tend to thwack on the strings, stiffs tend to ping, mediums are usually pretty good.

I mostly finger-pick myself.

 

Where does "fall away" occur in regards to neck relief?

 

Lloyd must be before my time, Michel retired. I'll have to check who else there is to check with.

There's more than kind of clang tone, more than one way to do that. Have to look further at that.

With the bridge and its piezos being replaced and circuit board being replaced,.... must be something else.

If it were a piezo problem, replacing piezos would fix it. If it were firmware, everyone using the firmware and I would have that problem too (with my four) JTV's,... and I don't.

 

If it were the production series of bridge, I'd see many more of these. Interesting idea though.

Something else is at play here,... just have to find it.

[MiroslavKloud]

Longitudinal vibration vs firmware.

[Kwendling]

What else is pre-piezo besides the mechanical wave and any physical issues like frets or something else vibrating? My test of swapping the E and A inputs at the circuit board seems to point to one of 2 things. Either both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other, OR, both mechanical signals are fine, and either software or electronics are adding the artifacts.

[MiroslavKloud]

Either both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other...

Yes. This is true.

[psarkissian]

Unfortunately, Modeling is more about modeling other devices,

in this case a guitar. Cleaning up artifacts is something else, or I

would've suggested that long ago.

 

And if it were the case, then all the JTV's would do that, including

all of mine. So it must be something specific to this individual guitar.

 

There was a firmware update where the palm muting was adjusted

and a couple other items.

 

Since the electronics from the piezos on down were replaced, the

firmware was updated and there's still a problem,... then it must be

something else.

 

All good suggestions though.

[Kwendling]

What part of the individual guitar would be wrong, if the 6th string sounded fine when the piezo connector was moved? When you reference parts of the guitar, do you include circuit boards, etc?

[psarkissian]

As mentioned before, switching connectors on the piezos is a blind alley

that goes nowhere. in some multi-channel device, that might be a useful 

test. But with this device, it's not a useful test except to show that both piezos

work fine. What's going into those piezos signal wise,....

 

Each piezo routes to a connecting point on the board specific for that string.

 

Yes,... the piezos, the bridge, the circuit board,... all replaced, and the firmware

was re-loaded to the latest version.

[MiroslavKloud]

psarkissian,

very please, invite to this discussion someone from the former team, that solved a problems with longitudinal waves.

[psarkissian]

:)

 

The more, the merrier.

[Kwendling]

How is it a blind alley? I realize that each input is optimized for a specific string, but in my case, the test shows both piezo are working fine and the source waves those piezos are picking up are fine. The mechanics are fine. There is something wrong post-piezo. How do we, or more likely Line 6, further isolate the problem?

 

With the one that had the bridge, piezos and circuit board replaced, did they try the same test again. Again, the act of replacing the bridge, the piezos, and the circuit board do not rule out any of those components, unless they came from the same model guitar and that one was tested and found to not have the issue, before being installed on the problem guitar.

 

I'm hoping I can get sweetwater to test this before they send me guitar #3...

[psarkissian]

The fact the the piezos work, shows that the piezos work, or one

would've failed during the swap test.

 

His electronics including the piezos and circuit board were replaced,

the firmware was re-loaded to the latest. If there's still a problem, then

it must be elsewhere. 

 

Kwendling, I don't know about your guitar, nor have I seen the repair

record yet. There may be something particular to your case that's different

and/or the same as Miroslav. I'll have to look into yours further.

 

The bridges are specific for each body style and are not interchangeable

for use with other body styles.

[MiroslavKloud]

"Both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other."

This is the whole and single problem.

[cruisinon2]

What else is pre-piezo besides the mechanical wave and any physical issues like frets or something else vibrating? My test of swapping the E and A inputs at the circuit board seems to point to one of 2 things. Either both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other, OR, both mechanical signals are fine, and either software or electronics are adding the artifacts.

Ding, ding, ding!!! There it is, summed up nicely. You nailed it. The notion that it's an entirely mechanical, set-up related issue is equal parts wishful thinking and cop-out. There are only so many things on a guitar that could be rattling to this extent. Once they're all either ruled out as the cause or remedied, all that's left is the electronics. Yeah, yeah the OP already had the guts of his guitar replaced. Proves nothing.

 

Personaly, I don't think anybody knows why this afflicts some instruments and not others, or it would have been fixed already. And I can accept that...sometimes things just aren't that neat and tidy. What strains credibility however, is the default response of "You're set-up must be f@$!#d". I suspect the truth is that some of these instruments just aren't gonna work right no matter how "dialed in" the set-up, or how many times they swap electronic components, most likely because of some combination of issues that exist in certain individual guitars and not others. I won't pretend to know they are, but the evidence leans heavily in this direction. You've got some guys trying to get the same guitar fixed multiple times, others going through 3, 4, and 5 different instruments before they get one that works. What does that all suggest? That there is some set of conditions that exists in certain units that results in a guitar that doesn't function as advertised. And when attempts at eliminating potential causes repeatedly fail, it suggests more than one cause working in concert...which may or may not be the same from one defective guitar to the next. All of that would make one universal fix very difficult to find, if one exists at all.

 

Now getting anyone to actually admit that will, in all likelihood, prove even more difficult to come by than finding a fix that actually works.

[Kwendling]

I have not sent mine in to Line 6. So far, only recieved a second JTV 89 from SW, and that has the same issue. I'll see if they can track the one I am sending right back ( the one I did test of switching connectors) and see if they can send back to L6. I hope they would not send it to another customer . As for why some guitars seem to do it and some do not, I would think the models regularly used, playing styles, and post guitar preamp and effects could hide or highlight the issue. Someone that is playing clean and mostly acoustic models might not ever notice a problem. The other possibility is that there is a bad batch of boards or electronics out there. Maybe both. If I actually get one that does not have this issue, I would be absolutely thrilled. I may have to go find some stores that have it in stock and just test as many as I can.

 

How much info on the specific hardware and electronics could be gleaned from just the guitar serial number? Would that also track any other parts' serial numbers or manufacture runs?

[psarkissian]

"Either both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either

software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other"----

No, that's not the reason,... nice guess. Not that kind of software.

Modeling, simply models the specified instrument.

 

"OR, both mechanical signals are fine, and either software or electronics

are adding the artifacts"----

No, that's not the reason,... nice guess. Not that kind of software.

Modeling, simply models the specified instrument.

 

 

If it were something other than Modeling, then the afore mentioned

would be valid,... good ideas though. I probably would have thought

the same too, if it were a processing method other than Modeling.

 

It simply processes what's coming from the strings.

[MiroslavKloud]

You are wrong, or you are lying deliberately.

 

"Either both strings produce some mechanical noise, and either

software or electronics is cleaning up on one and not the other"

This is the actual description of the problem!

[psarkissian]

I'm not lying.

It's just that it gets into details of modeling I'm not allowed to

talk about. You're talking about effects, I'm talking about cause.

 

It only appears to clean it up. There are things going on in the

software I can't get into. The appearance of cleaning up the signal

is just that, appearances. At some point, somewhere, certain

artifacts and distortions will appear in the E6, A5 signals when you

do the piezo line cross swap.

 

Sorry, would love to get into the deep stuff of it all with you, but I'm

simply not allowed to go any deeper into the processing than that.

 

If it were a firmware design failure, everyone would have that problem

including me with my four JTV's.

 

 

(oh, and, please don't call me a liar again, it's just plain not cool,

and besides,... I was a Boy Scout, we just don't do that).

[MiroslavKloud]

I do not want to offend you, but I solve this problem with you and your colleagues since Sep 29, 2013. Even before the guitar was twice in a repair shop - piezo / bridge.  I'm angry.

I do not know the details of modeling, but I imagine the problem like this:

The A5 string on most guitars (including the JTV) creates a significant longitudinal waves. You are creating an algorithm that adjusts the input signal (including the longitudinal waves) into shape of A5 strings on the Stratocaster (for example). OK.

 

E6 string on most guitars have not so significant problem with the longitudinal waves. You are creating an algorithm that adjusts the input signal (without the longitudinal waves) into shape of E6 string on the Stratocaster. OK.

 

However, there are a smaller number of guitars, which have on the string E6 the longitudinal waves a greater,  or these waves have a different frequency - compared to a reference guitar.

 

Your solution? - This problem does not exist.

[psarkissian]

No offense taken.

 

The problem exists,... we just need to find the right solution.

 

There is an extraneous vibration somewhere that's getting into

the piezo, and the circuitry is trying to process it with its algorithm.

 

We just need to find that extraneous vibration, and stop it before it gets to the piezo. 

[MiroslavKloud]

But A5 has the same problem. Even appreciably greater. And after processing everything is OK.

This means - problem with the longitudinal wave can be solved in firmware.

Probably it would require to create an alternate version of FW.

Or find a reliable way to mechanical reduction these wave.

When it you do not do, nobody will not do it.

[MiroslavKloud]

Does anyone work for a remedy already?

[psarkissian]

I'm looking thru a few things and reviewing.

Hang in there.

[onkelfeix]

Same problem here with my 89F bought in Germany ( Music Store Cologne ) about 3-4 months ago.

Its through all tunings, most audible though in standard tuning. 

Strange thing if I play pinch harmonics , it sounds more or less good in standard tuning, but especially on the E6 and A5 the harmonics sound like some dying dinosaur or something like this.

 

 

Looks like Miroslav made a huge effort to find out what's causing this problem - I really hope his (and all other contributors) voice will be heard and will result a productive reaction. 

After reading all 9 pages it got more and more frustrating, especially if I keep in mind why I bought this guitar and how long it probably will take to fix this permanently if it ever will be fixed. 

 

Some examples I had :

Palm muted playing: Some days ago I was playing "Zero Signal" from Fear Factory (Baritone Tuning) ,

all I could hear is that E6 plinging noise instead of the note was playing. This is really distracting me.

 

Pinch harmonics: Slipknot - Psychosocial , right in the beginning there are some pinch harmonics that are played on E6 and A5 strings. They sound so badly that you just don't want to do them any more, no matter what model you are playing with. (in my case I use Lester-1 most of the time)

 

This will lead me to buying a regular 7string guitar - that was a step I wanted to avoid with buying the JTV89F.

At the moment it feels like if I bought an AWD car which just drives  the rear wheels once I'm on snow and ice :/

 

I opened up a ticket today, I got a friendly response which adresses that the combination of palm mutes / harmonics along with distortion amplify some problems with certain models.  That was before reading this thread which helped me alot to understand what's going on. 

[psarkissian]

This can manifest differently with an 89F, than with a 59 or 69, being

different mechanics and piezo assemblies.

 

-Set up could be a reason

-if the locking nut "V" slots are not cut and aligned correctly (seen a few of those in rare occurrences)

-Loose hardware allowing secondary vibrations to occur (seen a few of those, commonly mistaken for cross-talk)

-Piezo being connected to an incorrect spot on the connector

-Secondary, sympathetic vibration creating a distortion that gets injected into the signal

-Changing string gauges, which changes the string tension on the neck, and not getting the set-up adjusted for it

 

 

It's common to mistaken secondary or sympathetic vibrations from other strings as being cross-talk.

Understandable since the differences are subtle.

 

There are some differences in the reasons for such things to occur.

 

And yes onkelfeix,... these piezos can be sensitive and they have to be set up in the correct order.

The 89F piezos are not set up in the same way that the 59, 69 or 89 are done. The 89F piezos are set

in groups, so they have to be installed to the correct positions and connected to their correct places,... 

.... even more so than with the other JTV's.

 

 

[onkelfeix]

Ah ok you looked into my Ticket :)

My latest answer was before digging deep into this thread.

 

That was my first attempt trying to figure out what's going on and whats steps I can do myself before taking the guitar into the store to sort things out with the personnel.

My attempt was dropping the volume of certain strings. I did this by completely muting E6 and then playing it. Then lowering the volume of A5 until it stopped ringing with it. But that was just a test. My result came out with E6:45% , A5:50% ; D4:55% ; G3:100% ; B2:100% ; E1: 50%  so that no string interferes with the other ones.

That still may be completely wrong - could have really nothing to say. I consider myself as a beginner with music , just playing for about 1,5 years now.

 

Think the best way is to get the Guitar to the shop where I bought it, let them take a look on it, let them test the same models (they should have plenty in stock) for comparison and then suggest a proper solution, which is covered by my warranty. 

[psarkissian]

String amplitudes will be different on different Models. For instance, the

Lester in toggle-1 down position is one of the higher amplitude Model patches, 

while the Chime in toggle-2 is one of the lower amplitude Models. Banjos have

a short attack and short release time. So I wouldn't take any of the amplitudes

of patches as a reference for calibrating.

 

But yes, take it in while the warranty is there. With different climates in the Euro 

acting on an instrument, it's a good idea to have a local authorized service center

check it out. They will have access to service info. These aren't our grandfather

guitars with passive electronics anymore. And mixing mags with piezos is touchy,... 

... the specs have to be spot on.

[cruisinon2]

These aren't our grandfather

guitars with passive electronics anymore.

Pretty please, in the name of all that is decent and Holy...you need to find a new tag-line. Check with the boys in advertising, see if they can free up a few bucks and put a team together for ya. :)

[CipherHost]

Changing string gauges, which changes the string tension on the neck, and not getting the set-up adjusted for it

 

Could you please tell me the optimal gauges of strings the 89F was designed for? Also, is there one or more brands which would be optimal as well?

 

Thanks

[snhirsch]

I believe all Variax guitars ship with D'Addario 0.010 - 0.046 EXL110 Nickel Wound.

[Triryche]

These aren't our grandfather

guitars with passive electronics anymore.

 

 

True story, ask my granddaughter!!

 

Although her answer right now will likely be an impression of a monkey. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Charlie_Watt]

I have two grandkids!  I resemble that statement!

[Triryche]

I have two grandkids!  I resemble that statement!

It's strange, I don't feel old enough to be a grandpa, I definitely don't act old enough!!

[MiroslavKloud]

I'm looking thru a few things and reviewing.

Hang in there.

Any result?