CONFIRMED - battery temperature sensitivity.

[ricstudioc]

Hey all -

 

So - 4th of July bash in Phoenix, 10k or so people out there and we're the main stage.  Running the JTV thru a Relay into the rest of the Dream Rig.  I'm on a battery that is fully charged, with a spare also full sitting in the case.

 

First set goes fine - little 12 string here, bit o'acoustic there, all good.  2nd set first "special" tune comes up, I push the modeling button - magnetics.  Hit it again - magnetics.  Now I'm looking down at the knob/button, hit it again - no light.  Nothing.  Flip the guitar over and push the battery test button - zero LEDs.  Huh?  Slip the battery out, grab the spare and slide it in - 4 bars.  Button up, hit the modeling button - nothing.  HUH?  Flip the guitar and hit the test button - zero LEDs.  OK - I KNOW both batteries came in fully charged.

 

Tell the band "no magic tricks" for the moment, adjust accordingly and off we go (the above probably took less then a minute) - play out that set without any trick guitar stuff.  During the break I slide out battery B, install A - 4 bars.  Hit the model button, nothing - and again NOW zero bars.  Install B - same thing.

 

Note here that I did NOT find the time to dig out the VDI cable and try powering from the POD - hey, high profile gig, no time for experiments right then.  Finished out the gig on my Steinberger and JTV mags.

 

This morning - so far! - the JTV seems to be behaving normally, it's sitting to one side with a 1/4" cable plugged in and modeling on, and for the past hour or so seems to be fine.  And showing 4 bars, as expected.  It'll be a day till I can get the full rig back up, I've got a truck full of gear to unload and set up.

 

The only thing that comes to mind is temperature, it was maybe 105 and humid (for us) yesterday.  But I've used the JTV in pretty-close-to-that-temps recently, it IS, after all, Phoenix. Yesterday was not even close to as hot as it can get.  In my time here, I've seen 122 - they shut down the airport at those temps...

 

So - fully charged batteries go in and are acknowledged, moments later the batteries show as dead although they're fine.  Wish I had the time to hook up via VDI - I may dig out the guitar rig first and set it up outside on the patio to try and recreate the problem, will be hotter today.  BTW - "ambient" hot, the JTV was not sitting in direct sunlight.

 

Anyone else ever note this problem with the batteries, or any temperature related issues?  Seen people using JTV's in hot environments?  Very interested in any insights here, if this thing is going to be temp sensitive (and c'mon - my laptop and tablet were both working fine) at the temps we see in the Phoenix area then I've made a serious error here.

 

Chip in with any thoughts - as I've typed this I've determined to get the rig set up outside today or tomorrow and try to recreate - I'll let y'all know...

 

And as always - thanks!

 

Ric

 

Edit, later this day - Ok, definitely a temp problem best as I can tell.  Put the JTV out on the back porch and let it sit for a bit, began exhibiting the same behavior.  No direct sunlight, ambient around 100 degrees.  Had to run up to the office for a while, when I got back I dug out the HD500x and VDI cable, got it hooked up out back.  (Now 104 ambient) - the modeling works under VDI power, tho oddly the "blue ring" around the modeling knob doesn't illuminate, just the little indicator dot.  So right now it's looking like a problem between the battery and the thermometer, with a question mark on the blue ring item.  Guess I'll copy this over into a service ticket and see what L6 has to say - not sure how I'd feel about not being able to go wireless with this axe, I'll ponder that for awhile...

 

btw - I've got a camcorder that runs on this same battery, it runs fine this time of year.  Just another data point.

 

Edit 2 - Based on a comment from a friend, I tried an experiment, kinda odd:  I suspended the guitar, strings up, across 2 chairs, body and neck.  Getting underneath, I installed a fresh battery (we're still outdoors here).  Waited a moment, the LED ladder lit full.  Without moving the guitar I got up and hit the modeling knob.  Voila - everything lit up, modeling engaged!!  I then put the guitar into playing position - and it went dead.  I've duplicated this several times - I'm now thinking there's a cold solder joint or some such somewhere in there, I've yet to gt into the guts of this thing so I'm not familiar with it's internal layout.  But it now appears to be a physical (and warrantable!) problem - NOT something related to battery/temp.  I consider this a good thing - implication is that somethings loose in there, and can be fixed. 

 

We progress....

[jandrio]

good troubleshooting procedure.
pls post "final verdict" when available...

[ricstudioc]

good troubleshooting procedure.

pls post "final verdict" when available...

Ok, I will.... :D   And I'm editing the title of the thread to indicate my findings, hopefully make it easier for someone to find in the future.

 

My optimism on the "positional"  approach appears to have been premature, There is absolutely an... issue... with the battery itself.  I hesitate to use the word "problem" as it appears to be inherent in it's design, and not any sort of failure.  To the point -

 

I got up Sunday, checked the JTV - doing fine.  I then put it out on the back porch and waited until the temperature hit 100.  Went out and checked - OK.  Gave it another 30 minutes and checked - fail. I then installed the backup which had been in the house - all good, brought the first battery back into the house.  Waited about an hour and checked - fail.  Installed the "house" battery - Ok.

 

I repeated this all through the day - invariably after about an hour (maybe less, I wasn't trying to graph the time here) the "porch" battery would fail, the "house" battery would fire right up.

 

Maybe 7 - 8 cycles of this, repeated every time.  You don't have to hit me with a stone....

 

I read in another post that the third contact on these batteries (flat contact on the bottom) might have something to do with a thermal safety, probably meant for the charging cycle.  Well, I'm willing to confirm some sort of thermal breaker exists, but it doesn't only effect the charging.

 

I'd note here that at no time were the batteries hot, or warm to the touch other than the ambient temp - so it's not like they were getting ready to blow. I wasn't wearing a face shield, handling the batteries with waldos.

 

So - I feel confident in my results, these batteries are designed somewhat TOO safe as regards temperature.  Most folks probably won't ever encounter this issue (how's Variax sales in Saudi Arabia?  Dubai?).  But us desert rats need to be aware of this situation...

 

On these kinda days down here I can either use the VDI - OR (the thought occurred) keep the batteries in the on-stage cooler we always have, swap'em out before a set.  Think I'll do some googling on temperature vs performance on lith-ions, could be interesting.

 

I'm not expecting L6 to re-do their specs on this - but if they could find a battery where the temp threshold is 10-15 degrees higher I wouldn't complain...  At least I know what's happening - I can deal with it.

 

Ric

[phil_m]

 

I'm not expecting L6 to re-do their specs on this - but if they could find a battery where the temp threshold is 10-15 degrees higher I wouldn't complain...  At least I know what's happening - I can deal with it.

 

It's my understand that lithium-ion batteries are very sensitive to high temperature as far as it affecting not only their ability to hold a charge but their useful life as well. Perhaps the temperature cutoff is there to prevent premature death.

[clay-man]

That's kind of annoying since it can be hot on a stage/live show.

Looks like you better keep your VDI close by on hot days.

[ricstudioc]

It's my understand that lithium-ion batteries are very sensitive to high temperature as far as it affecting not only their ability to hold a charge but their useful life as well. Perhaps the temperature cutoff is there to prevent premature death.

Yah, that's my assumption - I'm self centered, but not so much as to think they put that there just to f#*k with me.  Like I said, I'll get around to some googling and see what I can learn.  No hurry now, I can work with/around the issue.

 

But as I mentioned above - I've got a camcorder that runs on (practically) the same battery, used it to record the show.  It ran fine thru the entire day....

[ricstudioc]

That's kind of annoying since it can be hot on a stage/live show.

Looks like you better keep your VDI close by on hot days.

Well in the battery's defense - I've been doing this for 40 years, everything from bars to stadiums, and a summer day in Phoenix IS a different kind of hot.  I've been hit by multiple 3000w follow spots Fresnel'd down to a pinpoint - not even close.  So it IS a unique set of conditions.

 

...but damn skinny, skippy - that VDI stays close at hand from now on.  Have to give up the dance moves, I guess.

 

Ric

[JTSC777]

I live in Californias Central Valley.We are in the middle of a 20 to 25 consecutive 100 plus degree stretch of weather that may go on longer.I play a lot of gigs outdoors during this season and this battery thing would be a problem for me. I keep looking for more reasons to go with a newer Variax instead of my VG Strat.I will keep looking.

[Charlie_Watt]

It sounds like an electronics problem to me - not the battery itself.  (Especially if it works again when you cool it down)  The battery case has electronics in it to protect the battery from discharging too far.  It monitors the voltage of the battery and cuts power if it's too low.  My experience with Lithium batteries is that they lose capacity when they are cold.  Cell Phones and cameras suffer this in the Winter.  An outside temp of 105 should not stress the battery.  (Stresses me though!)