How 2 set the Mixer Block w/DT25?

[jegler]

How are you guys setting the PODHD's mixer block with a single DT25? 

 

Should you run both A and B the same level or mute B? cause there's a notable difference between settings.

 

How are you setting the pans? Straight up or L/R? There's a slight difference here, too.

 

Right now I'm using the discrepancies in the settings to help level out my patches. e.g. even if you set the loudest patch's chnl vol to a min(32) with mixer @ -7 and the quietest patch's vol to 100 w/mixer @+7 they're still not even. So I take the loudest patch and mute B and pan 100% the quietest patch gets both A and B and center panned. This seems to do the trick but seems more like a hack than a legitimate way to level your patches.

[Crusty_Old_Rocker]

The patch levels will be dramatically affected by the amp modelling that you're using. If you are using the "Pre" modelling and the DT's power amp topography & NFL, the levels will differ quite a lot, particularly if switching between class A and class AB. The different pre amps all have different gain structures and they all hit the power amp at different levels too. Think of it this way, if you put a real 85 Watt Fender Twin Reverb next to a real 30 Watt VOX AC30 and check out the volume difference, you'll be amazed at just how loud that AC30 is. The physical differences in the circuitry are responsible for this and the Pod HD with DT amp is duplicating those differences.

 

It gets much easier to balance levels when using different amp models if you use the full amp models in the Pod HD and select class A Topo I on the DT amp for all patches. This means that the amp tone is a finished product going into the DT amplifier and using class A Topo I will minimise the effect of the DT power amp on your tone. You can then balance patches using the channel volume. Don't be afraid to tweak the deep editing parameters on the amp modelling to get the tone you're looking for.

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

[jegler]

It gets much easier to balance levels when using different amp models if you use the full amp models in the Pod HD and select class A Topo I on the DT amp for all patches. This means that the amp tone is a finished product going into the DT amplifier and using class A Topo I will minimise the effect of the DT power amp on your tone. You can then balance patches using the channel volume. Don't be afraid to tweak the deep editing parameters on the amp modelling to get the tone you're looking for.

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

Thanks for the tips, but this actually raised more questions than it answered. Are you saying that you grab a bunch of full amp models on the HD, set them all on the DT to voicing 1, class A, and just use the DT as a kinda powered speaker? Are you in full vol. mode or LVM? Sounds like you coulda saved hundreds of dollars by just buying a powered PA speaker instead of a DT.

 

I wanna use the DT in full vol mode with preamp models on the HD.  In my experience switching between output tube class (A or AB), power tube mode (pentode/triode) settings just creates headaches with DI vs. speaker levels and so I keep everything class AB pentode. 

 

My question stems from the fact that even though the DT is a mono amp, volume levels from both Path A and B in the HD500's mixer block affect the DT's final level.

 

My question is: what's the "proper"way to approach the stereo mixer block settings when using a mono DT?

[radatats]

I think the beauty of this system is there is no "proper" way to set anything other than to makes sure you are not inducing clipping at ant point in the chain.  I can't say I have anywhere near the problems with volume leveling you are describing.  Of course an F-Ball is louder than a Blackface, no question but between channel volume and drive settings I really have not had to make any big mixer adjustments, certainly not to the extent you are describing.

 

I agree with you on the pre vs. full models with the DT.  I have all my full amp patches set for the PA but I use the pre's with the DT.  However, I understand what Crusty is saying.  By setting the Power section the same for all models and using the full amps you can tailor your tone with the amp DEP.  But that's what I got the DT for in the first place.

 

You might want to try checking your signal levels by using meters in a DAW on your computer with the USB.  It is much easier to get unity gain at each stage this way rather than just trusting your ears.  You may see other ways to boost the strength of your quieter tones and you may be overdriving your louder ones.

 

As to the mixer, your original question, it doesn't matter at all.  The DT is a mono amp so unless you have 2 of them the stereo panning does nothing other than lowering the final volume.  If that works for you,that's fine.  I tend to center all my DT patches too.

[Tboneous]

I center the mixer as well. I dont have too many volume leveling issues because I only use a few of the amp models in a live situation. I need a clean, a crunch, and a lead tone. I dont think i need to cycle through 12 amps to make that happen. With the proper fx in the proper order, the PHD does a fine job for me these days.

 

If one absolutely must go from an FBall to a Blackface and back again in a single song or set, I have found that a studio eq in the chain can help boost the lower volume models without too much color.

 

Be carefully of clipping.

[jegler]

All good advice and spot on, BUT I guess I should confess that this is part of the larger question of not only how to level patches so they sound good through the D.I. but also the speaker or vice versa. I figured they should be one in the same, right. But I've been at this for a little over a year and in my experience, the D.I. and the speaker don't behave as one. Whether in full volume mode with preamp models or LVM mode with full models, I simply cannot get patches to sound even across both D.I. and speaker. 

 

I play in a cover band that plays a wide variety of styles, and as such I need a rig that can play back a wide variety of tones. The Dream Rig is definitely advertised as such a rig. Should be perfect. But not if the godd*mn DI is putting out wildly different levels than the speaker.

 

Yes, I could just shut up and put a mic in front of the DT, but that's extra gear and I can't  isolate the board send to FOH and I'll never be able to use LVM. Plus, with a wife, two kids and a full time job, It's a pain to find the time to crank up your amp and level patches while the neighbors curse you under their breath. 

 

Anyway, enough b*tchin' I'm simply trying to isolate and eliminate EVERY SINGLE variable that could contribute to this phenomenon. And with the Dream Rig, that's a lot.

 

Thanks much for your time and expertise. 

 

Mark this as unresolved.

 

JTV/VDI>PodHD500/L6>Dt-25

[radatats]

are you sending the Direct Out from the DT to the PA and the volume levels are wildly different between the DT and the Direct Out?  That's just weird...

[jegler]

are you sending the Direct Out from the DT to the PA and the volume levels are wildly different between the DT and the Direct Out?  That's just weird...

Yeah tell me about it...

 

I  level patches by ear and by meters via the DI from the DT. (I'm in LVM mode) Then I flip the DT standby on (still in LVM mode) and listen to the speaker, and my patches are all over the place in volume. 

 

If I set them by speaker volume, my DI level is all over the place.

 

System settings: (for all patches)

 

Input 1: guitar+variax

Input 2: variax

 

Mixer block:

Path A +0dB center panned

Path B mute

 

I also set every single patch to Class A/B Pentode. Every patch has the same JTV model.

 

I never touch the Master vol on either the HD or the DT during the process. They're both set to "2o'clock" This is pretty much driving me insane. Same thing in full volume mode with the pre amp models: I'll set them by ear with the amp blasting in another room, and they sound fine on stage but my drummer complains that his in-ear mix (which comes from the DT's D.I.) is all over the place in volume.

 

It seem to me the speaker is getting/giving a totally different signal than the D.I. What gives?!!?

[radatats]

Might not help with this specific problem but we spent a lot of energy on figuring out mixer settings and the DT direct out last year on two epic threads.  The links are below for you to read and maybe get another understanding of how this stuff plays together...

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/4651-mixer-blasphemy/

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/5403-dt-cabinet-simulated-direct-out-questions/

[jegler]

Might not help with this specific problem but we spent a lot of energy on figuring out mixer settings and the DT direct out last year on two epic threads.  The links are below for you to read and maybe get another understanding of how this stuff plays together...

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/4651-mixer-blasphemy/

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/5403-dt-cabinet-simulated-direct-out-questions/

Yup, that's pretty much EXACTLY what I needed. I'm gonna pore over this and punch some buttons and twist some knobs and see what's what.

 

Thanks to you and all the forum regulars who help out with this shtuff.

[MartinDorr]

I use the mixer strictly at the end of all processing. For single Amp tones I put all models in 1 path, mute the other path, and use the mixer only to adjust for power amp configuration volume differences. I believe to remeber that in this case channel panning in the mixer does not matter.

 

If you split the path with an Amp and then mix both paths center you just get a 6dB boost versus if you just keep them on each side (or use only 1 path in the center).

 

I believe the volume difference between the quietest and loudest DT25 power amp configuration is close to 20dB (4x volume difference), i.e., when you had +7 and -7 dB in the mixer to adjust volume and used center pan (+6dB) you hit it right on correcting for a 20dB difference.

 

I have more detail on the relative volume levels the different power amp settings cause (and 2 little HD500/DT25 communication 'secrets' that I think exist, but they usually don't matter much in practice when you just fiddle with the knobs until you like what you hear). Let me know and will find my notes and post.

 

Martin

[jegler]

For single Amp tones I put all models in 1 path, mute the other path, and use the mixer only to adjust for power amp configuration volume differences. I believe to remeber that in this case channel panning in the mixer does not matter.

 

I think it does. panned center it's louder than hard pan. 

[sonic]

I also put the mixer at the end of the chain like Martin, but I pan A hard left and B hard right. I put amp and effects in path A, and use path B for sending a clean guitar signal to my TC voice effect...

In the DT settings page I choose only path A.

 

Sammy

[ColonelForbin]

I  level patches by ear and by meters via the DI from the DT. (I'm in LVM mode) Then I flip the DT standby on (still in LVM mode) and listen to the speaker, and my patches are all over the place in volume. 

 

When you are in low volume mode, the DT25 and the HD500 are acting more like the routing Crusty described, in that, the power amp modeling kicks in and it does so on a sliding scale. The more you crank the amp, the less 'power amp modeling' is being digitally generated.

 

By comparison, when in 'regular volume mode', there is zero digital power amp modeling, it relies 100% on the Bogner / DT at that point.

 

Just guessing here, but you could be having issues when the digital power amp modeling kicks in; though I don't know the specifics of how that works. Which, referencing what Crusty said, is basically why he suggested using the full amp models rather than the pre versions, since in LVM, you are already modeling some or all of the power amp portion of the amp model.

 

Recently, I took a rather different approach to dialing in my patches before a gig, which was due to not having my DT25 at home.

So, I built all my patches using the PRE amp models, set the HD500 in combo/poweramp mode, and ran the 1/4" from the HD500 to the FX return of a 1x12 solid state Fender combo that I used to use before I got the DT25.

 

Allowed me to jam at 'neighbor / wife' friendly volumes, and somehow translated pretty well to the DT25.

It was more from necessity than anything else, but I will be doing that same move again tonight, since my DT25 and the PA is all at the drummers house, where we have rehearsals on Tuesday. Will try to make note of the speaker vs DI levels when I play on Tuesday, we'll see if my "off DT" patch building works out again.. I record multitrack anyway (M20d) so I will take a look at the DT25 DI signal when I get home and load it up in ProTools.

 

Cheers, Good Luck!

[jegler]

I also put the mixer at the end of the chain like Martin, but I pan A hard left and B hard right. I put amp and effects in path A, and use path B for sending a clean guitar signal to my TC voice effect...

In the DT settings page I choose only path A.

 

Sammy

Hey, would you mind getting really specific on how you set this up? I want to do the exact same thing. I assume you're connecting to the TC via the 1/4" outs on the POD. I had been connecting to my TC with the FX send, but don't want to eat up an FX block.

[sonic]

Hey, would you mind getting really specific on how you set this up? I want to do the exact same thing. I assume you're connecting to the TC via the 1/4" outs on the POD. I had been connecting to my TC with the FX send, but don't want to eat up an FX block.

Yes, I use the right 1/4" out to go to the TC guitar input. I set HD input2 to 'Same'. Mixer level to Nominal.

 

Hope it is clear...

 

Sammy

[jegler]

 

put the mixer at the end of the chain like Martin, but I pan A hard left and B hard right. I put amp and effects in path A, and use path B for sending a clean guitar signal to my TC voice effect...

In the DT settings page I choose only path A.

Yes, I use the right 1/4" out to go to the TC guitar input. I set HD input2 to 'Same'. Mixer level to Nominal.

 

Hope it is clear...

 

Sammy

Not yet - still not clear when you say "In the DT settings page I choose only path A"

I'm trying to duplicate your settings but am not getting a clean/noFX signal out of either of my 1/4" outputs.

In mixer I'm set Vol A = 0 pan 100% Vol B = 0 pan 100%

In the POD's utility settings page 3 Input1 = guitar+variax   Input2 = same (I normally set to "aux")

There's no DT settings page. In POD's utility settings there's L6 settings on page 9&10. Are you messing with those? (they don't seem to do anything for me)

 

Anyway thanks so much for the reply and info

[sonic]

Not yet - still not clear when you say "In the DT settings page I choose only path A"

I'm trying to duplicate your settings but am not getting a clean/noFX signal out of either of my 1/4" outputs.

In mixer I'm set Vol A = 0 pan 100% Vol B = 0 pan 100%

In the POD's utility settings page 3 Input1 = guitar+variax   Input2 = same (I normally set to "aux")

There's no DT settings page. In POD's utility settings there's L6 settings on page 9&10. Are you messing with those? (they don't seem to do anything for me)

 

Anyway thanks so much for the reply and info

Sorry, I was not sitting in front of the POD... so, in the L6 settings page 9, I set amp 1 to left, so only path A is going to your DT. Mixer at the very end of the chain and panned hard left & right, and make sure that there is no amp or (mono)fx before the split. Now the right 1/4" output goes to the TC guitar input, and then the most important thing I forgot to mention : I put a dummy cable in the left 1/4" output so the signal is split into left and right.

This makes sense ?

 

Sammy

[sonic]

Hey Hey - we're getting closer! The dummy plug  was key - however I'm only able to "filter out" any FX block that is POST amp block. (Basically anything that's between the amp split and the mixer) So I had to place everything after the amp split with the POD Amp sound still coming through the 1/4" jack out. The L6 settings didn't seem to do anything as far as the routing of the FX/Amp blocks to the 1/4" out. Nor did the Input 2 setting of "same". I put it back to "aux" as I don't like that "doubled" sound you get with "same".

 

I think I need more info on mono blocks and stereo blocks.

 

I sometimes use the POD as a "pedalboard" with my Marshall, where I don't use the amp models and this setup of yours works great. However, I mostly use the DT25/POD via L6 and it's not really workable to put everything after the amp block. I still get all my compressors and distortions coming through, but I guess I can live with that? Better than everything coming through, but still not as good as an FX send out placed at the beginning of the chain. Man I wish the POD had just one more FX block!! That's all I need, I swear!!

 

Anyway thanks bunches for the help with the details - feel free to weigh in further...

any effect or amp block you put before the split will go to both outputs, so you need to place everything (including amp block) in path A and leave path B empty. If you then put input 2 to "same", its signal will go straight to the right 1/4" output.

 

I hope this helps...

 

Sammy

[jegler]

PS

below is an excellent thread on mixer routing on the POD along with a schematic.

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/2033-pod-hd-500-500x-new-routing-schematics/

[sonic]

Oh this is the part where  I admit that It took me awhile to figure out how to get "everything" in path A, due mostly to ignorance but also how, in between the split and the mixer, the POD actually won't let you place the amp block before/after FX blocks, you have to place FX blocks before/after the amp. I know it seems like a silly distinction but it was f%&kin me up. Here's a pic of my routing to get a "dry" signal out of the POD's 1/4"R output. (w/dummy plug in L output) First FX block is a noise gate. 

 

Thank you sonic for seeing this to the finish. This saved me from eating up an FX block, which is huge for me. Sweet. 

 

Couple minor points: I found it unnecessary to set the L6 DT setting to anything other than default left/right, other than for comparison to the dry signal. Also, I absolutely hate the "same" setting on Input 2 (puts my DT patches out of whack), I left it on aux and am just going to live with the weaker signal going to the TC.

Thanks again

:D

Make sure you also place the noise gate in path A. Otherwise you mix both inputs, wich might be undesirable... Can't remember if the noise gate is a mono effect...

 

Sammy

[sonic]

Make sure you also place the noise gate in path A. Otherwise you mix both inputs, wich might be undesirable... Can't remember if the noise gate is a mono effect...

Sammy

Also you have to set input 2 to 'same' in this case or you will have Nothing comming out of the right output.

 

Sammy

[jandrio]

noise gate IS a mono effect

[jegler]

Hey Sammy, after much tinkering, I admit that your recommendations are for the best. So here's the full rundown on getting a "dry" signal out of one side of the POD

 

Place all FX and Amp block in path A, mixer at the end of the path and pan hard LR

Input settings In1=guitar+variax In2=same

L6 link settings amp 1 Left

place a dummy plug in the left 1/4" POD output, the right 1/4"out gets the dry signal, and the DT gets all your FX and Amp.

 

[sonic]

Hey Sammy, after much tinkering, I admit that your recommendations are for the best. So here's the full rundown on getting a "dry" signal out of one side of the POD

 

Place all FX and Amp block in path A, mixer at the end of the path and pan hard LR

Input settings In1=guitar+variax In2=same

L6 link settings amp 1 Left

place a dummy plug in the left 1/4" POD output, the right 1/4"out gets the dry signal, and the DT gets all your FX and Amp.

yep, thats it. I also use this for sending acoustic guitar to a mixer...