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jegler

Patch Level Discrepancies/D.I. plz read

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JTV/VDI>PODHD500/L6>DT25

 

Using different models with different voicings, I've never, ever been able to get my patches level across both the DT speaker and the DT D.I. in the year that I've had it.

I spend most of my time in LVM but this also is the case in Full Vol. w/preamps

It's mostly the models that use voicing 3 on the DT. 

Matched at speaker volume (AND matched listening through the pod's own headphone jack), they become way quieter in the DI (relative to the other voices in all cases).

 (See my test settings below)

 

After emailing tech support numerous times I finally got a useable answer as to why this was, and I was NOT happy.

 

 

"Unfortunately on DT25 amp the Master Vol on the DT25 does not control DI at all.  The DI is controlled by the output of the modeling amps used on the POD.  Sorry if this isn't ideal for your set up."

 

How would that be ideal for anyone's setup? If the DI on your amp doesn't actually reflect what's coming out of your amp, that is, well, I guess I can't get my head around that. Totally not ideal.

I'm guessing that this all is reflective of a L6 hookup between the pod and the dt? 

I also guess that's why the the pent/tri or class switches do nothing to the DI sound.

What about when the dt is used standalone? Is the DI signal pre-master vol?  

Is it the same situation for LVM and Full Vol? 

Can I set the master vol on the dt so it will at least be closer matched to the pod's output? Or vice versa? 

 

 

The patches are level at the DT speaker.

The patches are level at the POD hedphone out.

Why in the holy f*%k are they not level at the DT's DI?!?!?!???

Because the sonics that come from your amp, which you're trying to duplicate via an output on that very same amp is not actually being controlled from nor does it sound like your amp.  

Absolutely brilliant. 

 

Anyone have anything to add? Please have something to add...

 

 

System settings: (for all patches) 

Input 1: guitar+variax 

Input 2: variax 

Mixer block: 

Path A +0dB center panned 

Path B mute 

I also set every single patch to Class A/B Pentode and an identical JTV setting.

POD mstr vol: 75%

DT mstr vol: 75%

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I already commented in the DT Amp forum how bad this behavior is.

Not sure whether it helps anything, but you may be able to use the attached doc to shed more light on which Amps produce same amplification levels including info on how PRES settings can change the level even if the selected Amps are using the same class, voicing, and tube configuration, i.e., not all preamps selecting the same power amp configuration are created equal.

Seems the DI feature is pretty useless for live performance situation (unless you limit yourself quite a bit or are really quick to switch more than 1 knob/dial).

Good luck,

Martin

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Seems the DI feature is pretty useless for live performance situation (unless you limit yourself quite a bit or are really quick to switch more than 1 knob/dial).

Good luck,

Martin

I was afraid of that. This is the situation:

 

If I set up 4 identical patches:A,B,C,and D and set A to an amp that uses Voice I on the DT, set B for a Voice II model, C-III, D-IV and then I adjust those patches so that the volume is consistent as I listen to the speaker (only using the model's gain and channel volume [see system settings in previous post]), when I monitor those same patches through a mixer board feed of the DT's DI - the patch using Voicing III is way low, like half the volume, of the other three patches/voices. But the patches also are level when I listen through the POD's headphone out.

 

So:

level coming out of the speaker

level coming out of the POD headphone out

NOT level coming out of the DI

 

As you might guess, if I set the patches' levels using just the DI as a monitor, patch voicing 3 is now twice as loud when played back with the speaker.

 

I need to know how to set my DT Dream Rig so that patches using models employing different amp voicings are level across both the speaker and the DI of the DT. 

 

But it sounds like you're saying that's not possible. Did you create that PDF yourself? That's hardcore badass, man. A little more technical than I can absorb in one reading, tho. Mabey you can help if I get super specific:

Using my dream rig system settings stated previously, I need to get my Divide 9/15 patch and my AC15 patch (both voicing 3) to jive up with my voicing 1,2 and 4 patches. I freakin love the sound of this amp. I love all 4 voices and especially the Voice 3 settings. I'm desperate. 

 

You say you're using path B cntr and muting A, if I swap those will that help?

 

 This is so f*cked I can't even believe it. Are there other DT users that are as pissed as I am? 

 

I'll get back to your PDF - it's way more than what Line 6 is providing as far as documentation...

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I can't go into depth right now, but feel welcome to ask specific questions (including the PDF file).

The PDF is a collection of data I collected over months.

I grabed all my floating sheets and added a couple measurements I did not use and put the PDF together over the last 2 days.

 

In regard to your posting above I am not clear whether you use LVM or not.

I have no data or advice for LVM and it is probably quite different from the 'full amp' as it is a modelled power amp running over some unknown 'real power amp' out the DT speakers , i.e., in simplified terms your hear the power amp portion of the full models in the HD running through some neutered real power amp stage of unknown type.

 

One thing I don't get is your comment that your HD headphone signal is level for the different amp types. This makes no sense to me as the output of the HD must be different to cause level output on the DT if you utilize different power amp configurations.

 

Maybe I am missing something.

 

You can't flip the Path A and B configuration I described in my document because the Amp in path A drives the power amp configuration of the DT (this is hard-wired). No Amp in path A and the DT is using it's own channel B setting and the builtin DT preamps. If you want to deviate from what you can configure as power amp section in a single amp tone (e.g. to control Presence of the power amp independent from the preamp) you must put a (muted) power amp configuration in path A and the preamp of choice and its settings in path B (in this case Path A is muted in the mixer because its only purpose is to configure the power amp stage in the DT). Obviously you can also use this setup as a full dual amp patch by letting the Path A signal (partially) through.

 

Hope this makes sense,

Martin

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Just 

 

You can't flip the Path A and B configuration I described in my document because the Amp in path A drives the power amp configuration of the DT (this is hard-wired). No Amp in path A and the DT is using it's own channel B setting and the builtin DT preamps. If you want to deviate from what you can configure as power amp section in a single amp tone (e.g. to control Presence of the power amp independent from the preamp) you must put a (muted) power amp configuration in path A and the preamp of choice and its settings in path B (in this case Path A is muted in the mixer because its only purpose is to configure the power amp stage in the DT). Obviously you can also use this setup as a full dual amp patch by letting the Path A signal (partially) through.

 

Hope this makes sense,

Martin

So could I set up 4 patches that don't use an amp in path A and have them correspond to the 4 voices on the DT? Those 4 stock DT voices are all perfectly usable. I'm gonna try that when I get a chance.

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I don't think that works although I never tried.

Once you disable an amp in Path A, the HD/DT control SW switches you over to Channel B on the DT and thus you may loose HD voicing/class/tube controls over the DT Channel settings,and subsequently you may only get what you dialed in by hand for Channel B on the DT.

Having said that I remember seeing a recent thread on the forum explaining how to use the HD to send MIDI to the DT and if this works you could possibly configure the HD to select channel B settings via MIDI. But I don't remeber the details and may not recall crucial details.

Martin

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no can do on switching the voices on the DT if no amp model is selected in the POD.

 

As per my original concern: do any other DT users out there have the same issue in LVM? And I think this is also the case in full vol. mode, but I can't yet confirm. Maybe my amp is lollipoped up. Wouldn't surprise me. Can anyone else out there set up 4 identical LVM patches: set 1st patch to an amp model using voice 1, 2 to voice 2, 3 to voice 3, 4 to voice 4, level them any monitoring means (using only the model's gain and channel vol) and then test that relative output to the DT speaker, DI, and the POD headphone out?

I swear to all that is sacred that I have these same 4 patches leveled coming out the DT speaker, level coming out the headphone out, but voice 3 is way off through the DI. 

I'm set up around my mixer board with the POD headout going to the mixer, the DT's DI going to the mixer, and sitting right next to the amp.

Listen to the DT speaker: level

Listen to the POD headout: level

Listen to the DT DI: not level (voice 3 patch is way low)

 

I've tried it with these amp models:

Double

J45

Divide

Tread

and also

Bman

P75

AC15

J800

 

 

System settings: (for all patches) 

Input 1: guitar+variax 

Input 2: variax 

Mixer block: 

Path A +0dB center panned 

Path B mute 

I also set every single patch to Class A/B Pentode and an identical JTV setting.

POD mstr vol: 75%

DT mstr vol: 75%

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Unfortunately there is not a way step through the 4 different voices of the DT via the POD and have the DI's output match the speaker's output.

Regards,
Will - Line 6 Support

 

Well, does that settle it? I think it settles the question of whether my amp is f*cked up. The answer is: "yes, but not in a 'broken' sort of way. It's by design."

 

I'm pretty sure if I'd have known this I wouldn't have bought the amp. I'm still gonna use it (unless someone wants to offer a fair price) and I actually think it sounds fantastic, but as a backend to a Dream Rig - no way. Woulda used the POD XLRs and a cheap powered monitor. Woulda saved myself many hundreds of dollars and countless wasted hours of twiddling. 

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Was your question to Line 6 support requesting this infor for LVM or regular power amp mode or both?

If this is a problem only for LVM mode and you use DI out strictly for home practice with head phones (amp in stand by) you may get away with just setting up matched tones for that purpose.

If you actually want full power mode and matched DI out (assuming this mode at least works) but you want to do realistic but quiet tone experiments at home, you could get a fairly cheap power amp attenuator or load box to quiet the speaker for home use and bypass this device when you can use the speaker. If you get a good box (like a Rivera Rockcrusher) you can also use it to push the tube amp while maintaining sane sound levels and don't miss out on the sound quality unless you are into lots of effects.

Hope you get something out of your invested time. I use my DT25 almost exclusively at bedroom levels, but always in full power mode. I do understand the experiment predicament: nobody wants to hear them (besides the one who does them).

Martin

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Well, does that settle it? I think it settles the question of whether my amp is f*cked up. The answer is: "yes, but not in a 'broken' sort of way. It's by design."

 

I'm pretty sure if I'd have known this I wouldn't have bought the amp. I'm still gonna use it (unless someone wants to offer a fair price) and I actually think it sounds fantastic, but as a backend to a Dream Rig - no way. 

 

OK, understand your not happy but seriously, why are you using the DI in LVM?  Just go straight from the POD to your board instead or headphones from the POD itself and problem solved.  LVM simply substitutes full amp models and cab sims so you aren't getting any tube mojo through the DI with LVM.  Might mean swapping a cable but BFD... better than wasting time using LVM with the DT and the DI...

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Just finished a round of measurements using full power mode DI through a mixer into my iPhone and found that all my balanced amp configurations deviated no more +/- 0.6dB from my target level I used for balancing via DT25 speaker. I am tempted to say that it is probably less as my speaker measurements where far less solid in terms of repeat measurements, i.e., a few could be easily off by 1/2 dB. Most of us have a hard time hearing that volume difference anyway unless the tone has exactly the same frequency spectrum. I consider doing an adjustment correction using DI measurements and then check how far off the speaker measurements are. If I'd guess I would say less than +/- 0.6dB.

 

Not sure I can get to the LVM measurements so I thought I better let you know what I have found so far.

Martin

 

PS: As a side note, with my Mackie 1202 mixer's mic input sensitivity at 100% and unity gain on the channel strip, my mixer thought the DI level was surprisingly low and high on high frequency noise. A bit dated technology, but still considered above average at its time.

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Got 1 round of LVM DI measurements and confirming your experience and Line 6 information. Any set of tones using different amp configs that are balanced with speaker or DI in full amp mode comes out with widely different volume levels on the LVM DI output. Voicing I, A/B is even 3dB louder than my the full power level. One was about same and the rest was way quieter (up to 21dB for Class-30TB). I guess the best you could do is build your own set of LVM tones that are balanced ... and you may need 2, one for LVM speaker and one for LVM DI, as you apparently found out. Consider going with a power amp attenuator if you want 'quiet' while using DI and full models. Seems anyway why the DT exists (the LVM mode is really a different set of power amps L6 had in its pocket from the HD models and did not have to develop much to expand their potential customer base). 

Martin

PS: Use this data at your own risk. Have not checked tones to track model selection or repeated measurements. 

  • Upvote 2

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OK, understand your not happy but seriously, why are you using the DI in LVM?  Just go straight from the POD to your board instead or headphones from the POD itself and problem solved.  LVM simply substitutes full amp models and cab sims so you aren't getting any tube mojo through the DI with LVM.  Might mean swapping a cable but BFD... better than wasting time using LVM with the DT and the DI...

"seriously, why are you using the DI in LVM?"  : wife and two kids.

Seriously, At home LVM allows me to tinker with patches and sounds while monitoring with headphones. You can't get a good read on your D.I. sound while the speaker is rattling the room. My neighbors and family definitely don't want to hear test loops being cranked for an hour while tweaking patches.  Live it  allows you to get a good read on your signal to the board before you switch standby on and work on your stage volume. And sometimes I play gigs where full vol is just too loud. I prefer to play full vol with pre's because it sounds glorious, but I'm often stuck with LVM because all reasons above. 

 

As for your assertion that you can just swap out my rig's DI output by using the POD's out's (headphone or otherwise) that's absurd. When hooked to a DT via L6, the POD defaults to "combo amp" output which you should know makes all the outputs of the POD sound like sh*t. And of course switching to "Studio out" makes the DT sound like poo. I already know how to get a good sound out of the POD. This is a DT Dream Rig issue. 

 

And I can't figger why the experts are all like: "why in the world would you use LVM?" like I'm an idiot or something. Why wouldn't I want to use a feature on my $1000 amp. If the DT D.I. behaved like every other amp D.I. on the planet, I wouldn't have to bother with costly workarounds. So yeah, whatever, I'll use the DI in full vol. mode and I'm gonna buy a Sennheiser e609 Silver and hang it in front when I use LVM. But I shouldn't have to.

 

I think we all learned a lot. Thanks for everyone's help and info. 

 

https://soundcloud.com/jordan_egler/let-go

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:

 

As for your assertion that you can just swap out my rig's DI output by using the POD's out's (headphone or otherwise) that's absurd. When hooked to a DT via L6, the POD defaults to "combo amp" output which you should know makes all the outputs of the POD sound like sh*t. And of course switching to "Studio out" makes the DT sound like poo. I already know how to get a good sound out of the POD. This is a DT Dream Rig issue. 

 

:

 

I think what radatats referred to was that running your DT in standby LVM mode and listening to the DI output could be very close to running a full amp models on the HD and listening to that via headphones on the HD (skipping the DT altogether).

Clearly I (and possibly radatats) don't know, but you would be running exactly the same models, just in a different box. I admit there is fair amount of guessing in this assessment, because, as you stated, the HD goes into 'combo amp' mode when you connect to a DT and then the DT's LVM DI signal generation is another unknown. But I'd still think it would be worth trying to either hand configure the HD to 'studio out' or disconnect it from the DT if you doing your tone experiments.

Having said that I believe any LVM of full amp model tone tuning experiments would generally not carry over well to DT full amp use modes because L6's full amp models are quite a different beast than the voicing, class, tube configuration approach in the DT power amp stage (as demonstrated by their totally different effect on the produced output volume).

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I think what radatats referred to was that running your DT in standby LVM mode and listening to the DI output could be very close to running a full amp models on the HD and listening to that via headphones on the HD (skipping the DT altogether).

Just making sure here: This is true singularly but not at all true REALATIVELY speaking for the very reasons you outlined in your previous post. Sure a single patch in LVM with any old amp model using any voice on the DT will sound practically identical in tone/quality whether you listen through the DT DI or just a headphone out from the POD (provided you switch between "combo" and "studio" on the POD). It's when you try to level patches that use different voices on the DT that one runs into the insurmountable problem of wildly different relative levels on the DT DI as compared to the POD out and DT speaker out.

 

And I guess  I thought it was pretty reasonable to expect to use all the patches and voices and all the amp options with a $3000 Dream Rig. I mean, options are exactly what they're selling, right? So, yeah, that sucks, but I'll spend the money to work around it now that I have a fully formed picture of what's going on. Tech support was giving me maybe C+ grade information and you all filled in the rest. 

 

Thank you MD for your measured, scientific-type data regarding this. It was you alone who reassured me that my DT was not "broken", just displaying an unfortunate byproduct of the Dream Rig's complicated routing.

 

Since Line6 is so stingy when it comes to documentation, it's up to all of us to iron it out, so lets have a group hug.  Mmmmm. OK.

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Well, I am glad you kept your humor through this.

I have my 'dream' now for 2 years and I just start to more easily find the source of my problems, but not necessarily always a solution.

Nothing is perfect. It is what it is ... and we make the best of it.

Enjoy (even if that means you might get rid of something),

Martin

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Seriously, At home LVM allows me to tinker with patches and sounds while monitoring with headphones. You can't get a good read on your D.I. sound while the speaker is rattling the room. My neighbors and family definitely don't want to hear test loops being cranked for an hour while tweaking patches.  Live it  allows you to get a good read on your signal to the board before you switch standby on and work on your stage volume. And sometimes I play gigs where full vol is just too loud. I prefer to play full vol with pre's because it sounds glorious, but I'm often stuck with LVM because all reasons above. 

 

As for your assertion that you can just swap out my rig's DI output by using the POD's out's (headphone or otherwise) that's absurd. When hooked to a DT via L6, the POD defaults to "combo amp" output which you should know makes all the outputs of the POD sound like sh*t. And of course switching to "Studio out" makes the DT sound like poo. I already know how to get a good sound out of the POD. This is a DT Dream Rig issue. 

 

And I can't figger why the experts are all like: "why in the world would you use LVM?" like I'm an idiot or something. 

never meant to infer idiocy on your part.  Honestly just wasn't understanding why you were trying to listen to the DT in LVM/STBY over headphones.  LVM mode on its own is a useful feature but not so much in LVM/STBY.  

 

Not sure that the DI was ever intended to give this capability.  The manual only mentions DI for your live rig so you don't have to mic and separately LVM for very quiet playing.  Don't think they ever expected someone to try to listen to headphones through a mixing board in LVM/STBY to adjust patches that would then sound different when you add the analog amp back in. Certainly I never considered it, not that that means anything I guess.  In the L6 Link manual they do suggest you can use LVM/STBY with the DI for silent recording but they don't say much more about it and again, IMHO, there would be no advantage over a POD patch.

 

As you know, the DI is tapped off the transformer to capture the analog amp section's effect on your tone.  When in LVM/STBY there is no analog signal and therefor no NFL (1,2,3,4) compensation being fed to the board.  You are only getting the digital pre and power amp modeling.  That is why I was suggesting to not use the DT at all in this setup, just the POD.  I forgot about the studio vs combo output issue.  Either way, I don't see any advantage to tweaking a DT patch without the analog component and it seems you will never be able to level patches that way.

 

Again though, not trying to infer anything negative, just trying to add to the conversation and hope to increase my own understanding.

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As you know, the DI is tapped off the transformer to capture the analog amp section's effect on your tone.  When in LVM/STBY there is no analog signal and therefor no NFL (1,2,3,4) compensation being fed to the board.  You are only getting the digital pre and power amp modeling.  That is why I was suggesting to not use the DT at all in this setup, just the POD.  I forgot about the studio vs combo output issue.  Either way, I don't see any advantage to tweaking a DT patch without the analog component and it seems you will never be able to level patches that way.

NP bro - I was operating under the assumption that the DT DI operated like the other amp DI's that I've used: what goes in = what comes out. the Dream Rig has very complex routing and gain staging that precludes the LVM DI output to be used for my particular purposes. (I want it ALL - ALL the time!) Now that I'm better clued in on how the rig behaves, I know you're  right about the LVM DI signal being the same as the POD's, but you can't use them at the same time due to the studio vs combo output issue so can't use it live with lots of patch changes. Oh well, got a sennheiser e609 to hang in front if I need to be in LVM and still get a consistent level to the board. Solved and moved on with just a smidge of residual resentment. Thanks for helping expand the knowledge base!

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