daacrusher2001

On 7/31/2018 at 8:58 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I appreciate the detailed post because it makes it much easier to respond to you.  You have no idea how rare that is around here...

 

I exclusively use a FRFR setup using a Yamaha DXR12 as my speaker.  I'm in an 8 piece band and we have a similar setup to yours in terms of a normal backline situation.  Although we commonly go direct into the mixing board with our instruments, there are several cases in which we only send the vocals, harmonica, and congas through the PA and depend on the backline stage sound for everything else in smaller venues.  My setup is the same either way in that I have my DXR12 on a half height speaker pole positioned behind me.  There's a lot of good reasons for doing it this way.  First, these monitors are designed to have a wide horizontal spread of sound and a much more limited vertical spread of sound.  If positioned in a wedge position either in front of you or behind you, your bandmates far to your left or right won't get much of the benefit due to what would normally be the limited vertical spread.  However, positioned upright on a pole it has exactly the same effect as a normal PA speaker as that what it is.  So in a smaller venue it simply augments the FOH speakers in that it has the same kind of long distance throw as a normal FOH speaker. It makes for the best of all worlds for both you, the audience, and your bandmates.

 

As far as going with a full FRFR setup, you'll likely need to make some adjustments to what you're used to with a conventional cabinet.  I've been doing this type of setup for so long (about 6 years now) that I get a bit frustrated when I use a cabinet because I'm so used to the clarity and definition of the FRFR speaker cabinets seem muffled to me.  I'm a bit concerned about your choice of speaker quite frankly though.  In the powered speaker market you pretty much get what you pay for, and the Headrush is more or less the lower end of the market.  You may be fine with it, and many people do use it, but it all depends on the style of music you play and how critical you are about exacting tones that you dial in.  We play a very wide range of genres including rock, blues, jazz, rockabilly, R&B/Funk, and I use a variety of guitars, so I'm pretty much OCD when it comes to getting the tone right for a given song.  If your band is more specific in genre it may not be that big a deal to you.

 

The best way I found to adapt to doing FRFR live is to think of it like I'm dialing in my sound for a studio session and what I'm trying to achieve is a studio sound live.  If you think of it that way you won't be thrown off by the whole "amp in the room" thing that bothers a lot of people, because there is no "amp in the room" sound in studio recordings.  This also means you'll need to be much more attentive to the things that are relevant to studio production such as compression, cabinets/IRs, mic usage, mic positioning, and EQ to get the finished, polished sound you would normally want in a studio.  You'll hear a lot about using high and low cuts due to the expanded responsiveness of a FRFR speaker, which is true to a certain degree, but not always a given depending on the amp, the cabinet, mic and mic positioning.  In effect you need to develop your ability to hear what frequencies are problematic and the different ways you can go about correcting them.

 

The biggest transition is in dialing in your tone.  It's important to be as near as you can to performance volume levels in order to not be fooled by the Fletcher-Munson effect.  And you definitely want to dial in your tones through the FRFR.  The main thing to remember is FRFR speakers are specifically designed for long projection of sound and will be much more harsh close up to the speaker.  This is the reason you don't seat people right in front of a PA speaker, because it takes a certain amount of distance to resolve the mix between the horn and speaker.  I normally stand 6 feet or more away from the speaker and often off axis to check my tone when I'm dialing it in.  My biggest issue is often getting too aggressive with high cuts.  What sometimes sounds right in isolation is far too muffled when combined with the rest of the band.

 

Hopefully that helps you or gives you some ideas about how to approach this.

I realize I'm 8 months late to this thread...but I've learned more from this thread than any other, and especially this quote from #DundinDragon. I have a few more questions - hopefully you guys can assist.

First, let me say that I am definitely not an audio expert. I'm a basic, plug my guitar into a good amp, maybe with a few pedals, guy. Modeling appeals to me for many reasons, but I've never been able to get my modeler to sound consistently good. I actually sold the Helix, and I'm now considering repurchasing as I'd really like to make it work for me. 

I play in a classic rock band - and also a jump blues band. In the rock band I play a mix of lead and rhythm. I play a lot more rhythm in the blues band as I'm a guest. The lead guitarist is a lifelong friend - it's his trio - and he likes to add me to their last set and we do some things that sound better with two guitars. 

I had been amplifying my Helix, and before that an HD500, through a Carvin PM12a. No matter what parameters I changed, probably not fully understanding the impact of every change, I always felt the sound was harsh on the high end. When I bought the Carvin, probably 10 years ago, it sounded pretty good at the Carvin store, was reasonably priced, so I gave it a shot. It still sounds fine to amplify music.

I had an opportunity to try a Helix into two QSCs (10/12) and two DXRs (10/12) - at a shop in the area. Just the standard presets sounded very good through these speakers. They are significantly more expensive than the Carvin was - and I'm guessing it's for good reason. This comment: "In the powered speaker market you pretty much get what you pay for, and the Headrush is more or less the lower end of the market." - I think, describes the Carvin as well. 

I'm sure it's the totality of the engineered components in the QSC or Yamaha speakers that makes the difference...what about DSP? Is DSP a key component here...seems like the lower end speakers don't use DSP, or at least their specs don't mention it. 

Also, I'm likely to use my setup 80% of the time at home. We only gig occasionally, so I want something that sounds good in the house so I can dial in my presets, and just turn them up when we play. 

Would I be better off with a 12" if I go with one of the higher end speakers, or the 10" ? I honestly preferred the 10" when I tried them in the shop, but I didn't turn them up to band levels...

What about the Bose L1? I've seen some very good reviews from modeler users - will it be loud enough with the full rock band (6 Piece )? It appeals to me because I think it would work great for the smaller venues I play with the Blues trio.

I just got a great deal on some PM12 units (free) and will be giving them a go with the Helix. I looked up the frequency response on them and they are about as "flat response" as any other 12" two way speaker, with a little dip in the mids which is to be expected. 

Would love to know what you think of them. Mine is working OK with the Helix for some models. Has a fizzy top end tho', and the bass has to be dialed down some. 

I've had lots of tube amps and lots of Line 6 products, the last one being the Pod HD500. I think the Helix is miles ahead of anything Line 6 has produced previously. And yes, there's a lot of clean and semi-clean amp options in it including a wonderful sounding model of the Vox AC-30. Semi-clean/dirty models were something that I used to perceive as problematic with Line 6's DMAs, but not anymore! I think the amp models are at least 95% as responsive as their tube amp counterparts and Helix is way more fun than any all-tube amp because it can do so much more! The only thing you might miss is the "plug in and play" factor. You can tweak a great tube amp to taste in a matter of 2 minutes; it's going to take more effort with Helix. But a little patience and determination is going to be well worth the effort if you ask me! For the first time ever, I don't have any nostalgic impulses to go back to tube amps.

This has been my experience as well. Almost exactly...lol

I am very impressed with Helix - just for a test, I set up the deluxe reverb and tried to replicate my Allen Accomplice for tone. It took some tweaking. Honestly, I could use either the Helix or my Accomplice and you'd be hard pressed to tell which is which.  I need a better way to amplify the Helix - likely going down the DXR10 or 12 path. 

I also agree with one of the previous posts on the OD's. With my valve amp, I use a Fulltone Fulldrive, Timmy, and MXR Carbon Copy - the FX in the Helix sound pretty much the same as my pedals. 

I never could get the tones and responsiveness with the HD, or XT, or my old Bean POD - not even close. Helix is miles ahead.

I have a Helix, I have a Katana 100 combo. I've never plugged the two together. When I first got my Helix, I used it with several tube and SS amps with various routing configurations. After I got my Yamaha DXR12, I felt it was a much better match for the Helix and I quit experimenting with other amps.

The Katana has a single guitar cab type speaker. The new Line 6 Spider V has a 2 way flat response type speaker. I would think the Spider V might fill the role you're thinking about a little better than the Katana.

I like my Katana a lot. I've just never considered using it as a Helix amp. I use it for practice at home and as a grab and go combo for jam nights.

I looked at the Spider V lineup, doesn't appear to have an FX send/receive - Is there some way to shut off modeling and FX and just use the power amp?

I tried the PM12a with my Pod HD a whole back and it was just so harsh compared to my Alto.

 

A Katana with Helix sounds like fun, and would make a good backup in case something were to happen to your Helix

I had the same experience with the POD. I've been able to make the PM12a work with the Helix - maybe it's me, but the Helix seems much easier to adjust to dial out the harshness.

The EHX looks like an interesting idea. I hadn't really considered it before. What speakers do you use in the cabs with the EHX? Anything in particular?

Before adding a pair of Yamaha DXR10 to use with the Helix, I was using my Fender Mustang Amps. I've have the IV v.2 and III v.2. Both have FX Returns and may be configured to be run as powered cabs such that the Mustangs' Amp profiles, FX, and Cab Sims may be bypassed, if desired. The Mustangs have very good Celestion speakers, 2x12 and 1x12, respectively. I feel they do a very good job with the Helix for electric guitar. However, the respective Celestion speakers roll off dramatically above 4kHz, so any other material, instruments, and upper harmonic electric guitar content is vastly attenuated. I still use them with the Helix when I want to move more air than what the two Yamaha DXR10 can accomplish.

The DXR10 was at the top of my list. I tried the QSC's as well. Both were good. I just thought using an amp like the Katana or Mustang would give me additional options. I guess I'm going to have to just try it...One question, is the DXR10 loud enough with the band. I wouldn't be mic'ing anything, It'd be Helix to DXR and that's it...

I don't love the sound of my Carvin PM12A to amplify my Helix. It's ok, but has some fizziness I can't dial out sometimes.

I've been considering a Yamaha DXR10 as a replacement - but...last week I tested out a Boss Katana.

The Katana sounds pretty good - I'd just want it for Jams and a small venue gig we do...but I started wondering about using it to amplify the Helix.

I can go right out of the Helix into the Katana power amp. 

Is anyone using a Katana or other similar amp with their Helix this way, if so, does it sound good - better/worse than a powered monitor like the Yammie?

I can barely see the left side menu with my Surface Pro 3. The text is tiny. Any ideas?

Is there any hope for fixing this problem? I can't use the editor effectively on my Surface Pro 4. The text is tiny and the app doesn't give you any options to resize the text. 

It's actually really bad.

Gotta use a twin reverb to get that Jerry tone for Shakedown. That was always the foundation of his sound... vintage twin reverb and jbl speakers... i am just thrilled there are other dead enthusiasts on these boards. The fact that we have a mutron model is one of the selling points for me with the helix. My two biggest influences, Jerry and Jj Cale.

I got a pretty good Shakedown preset using the Deluxe but I will switch it up as you suggest. Funny you mention. JJ Cale, was listening to him yesterday on my commute home and thinking we need to add After Midnight to our list for an upcoming gig.

So, last night I was able to try out the many suggestions here - I have been using just my headphones and was able to finally start getting some good tones and saved a few presets. I turned on my Carvin and honestly, they didn't sound too bad. I was very surprised. I did a ton of tweaking to get good sound through the headphones and I'm not sure I've settled in on anything just yet, but it's starting to feel like I'll be able to really get some good use out of the Helix.

The real key has been experimenting with and using high/low cuts and EQ's. I don't have it right quite yet, but I cranked one of my presets pretty loud and I could definitely use it live.

I'm staying pretty basic right now...Deluxe Reverb (Normal), Tube Screamer, LA Comp, and delay. Working the EQ in the chain in different places. Ran out of time again so still more to do.

I managed to get a usable "Shakedown Street" tone with the Envelope Filter - tho' it seemed tinny and harsh sounding at first until I made some adjustments. 

I need a killer smokey sort of blues tone - that's my next objective.

Feeling better about it all now - also switched to my Tele with a ballsy set of Kleins (Broadcaster bridge, Nocaster neck) - I found the putting the guitar input in PAD mode helped a lot with that Broadcaster. 

So far I don't love the delays or the Timmy, and some of the fuzz are a bit buzzy for my tastes. Gettin' there

Also have you done all those global settings? Some

Have you gate the input? No, not yet

LP HP filter out cabs? Yes, extensively tweaked these

Change cabs and mics? Yes, both...down to a couple of mics I like so far

Third party IR? No, not yet

Global EQ - Yes, it helped some.

Use EQ and Comp block at the end of signal chain? Yes, EQ only so far, added comp last night but ran out of time...

 

Its alot of tweaking to get those tones you can also change sag hum bla bla in amps..I was fooling around with some of those parameters last night but decided to leave that for later, to really fine tune things, maybe won't matter, dunno....yet

I was able to get a decent sounding preset last night, through headphones only - I wasn't able to turn the Carvin on as it was too late when I got to it. Tonight I'll turn it on and see how it sounds.

The biggest change came from the high/low cut and EQ. It seems I need to adjust everything in the signal chain to some degree. 

That said, I am sticking with OD, Delay, Amp, Cab until I get that simple chain sounding right when amplified through the Carvin or at least my Rockit 5's. 

It may be that the Carvin won't get me where I want to be and I need something a bit better - Once I get a few presets that I like through headphones and my Rockits, I'm going to take the helix to a local shop and plug it into QSC and Yamaha's...just to see how it sounds. Then I'll decide.

The post cab processing piece is definitely an enlightenment for me. 

Have you looked at the advanced display options in the OS? I don't know if these options are present on the mobile version of Windows 10, but when running on a stationary computer, you can go to settings -> system -> display, and then advanced display settings. From there you can change fonts sizes for specific parts of the user interface, or you can change the scaling for the entire user interface, which could make things bigger. Might be worth a look.

Yeah, I've tried everything. The only thing that helped was adjusting the resolution down a bit, but I'd rather not leave it that way.

Silverhead is right about the 50-18khz not quite being the typical 20Hz-20khz that many full-range speakers have but this range should be more than adequate for use with guitar. It sounds to me like you just need to filter the lows and highs with your Carvin until you are happy with the sound. If it is sounding boomy/muddy on the low end and brittle on the high end just start with a high-pass filter at 85hz(you may go as high as 150hz) and a low-pass filter at 8khz (you may go as low as 4khz) and then modify to taste. If it is still too muddy raise the high-pass filter setting, if it is too brittle then lower the low-pass setting. If you lose too many highs or lows than do the opposite and back those settings off a bit. You can set these limits with an EQ block, the Global EQ, or on the cab block's settings. I mention the 150hz and 4khz as what I consider to be floor and ceiling points  where you have either already, or are about to, severely impact the frequency range, I would reserve cuts at or beyond those limits for "specialty sounds". 

 

Make sure you have the line/mic setting correct on your Helix outputs to the Carvin and the large "Volume" knob up to at least half way, turn down the Carvin volume if you have to. Once you have your lows and highs sounding the way you like you can use a parametric EQ block or the Global EQ to get rid of anything that still offends although I find I rarely have to resort to additional EQ after the high and low limits are dialed in to my liking. It is however always possible that the Carvin has a bump in its frequency response somewhere other than the low and high end that is not pleasing to you, if so, use the parametric EQ to dial it out. Also, don't be afraid to dial the bass way down on the amp models, a lot of them sound better to me with the bass closer to 3.5 than 5.0 (at least on my full-range speakers); also keep an eye on the amp's Presence setting and don't hesitate to take it down to 0 if required. I think it is the rare piece of equipment that cannot be dialed in to sound great with some patience, some take a little bit more effort than others. I don't think the Carvin will be any exception.

Hey, thanks for the detailed response. You would think, after playing guitar for a long time, I'd know more about this stuff, but I've always been a guitar into amp guy, with an occasional pedal for OD or delay...that's it...so much of this is new to me.

One question, should the Helix outputs be set to line or mic? I assumed line, but am I wrong about that?

thx...! 

If you're wanting a warmer FRFR, the Friedman ASM-12 is a little more warm and amp like than some others out there.

 

Personally, I use my coaxial 15" Seismic Audio powered monitors more than my Friedman now. Love having the bass and treble controls on the back.

I'm really wondering if it's just a configuration issue and I can maybe get it sounding right with the Carvin. It even sounds a bit harsh with the headphones.

Well i guess you have heard all those amazing tones in videos that is floating around on internet so if you can get those tones they have managed to dial in i bet you know where the problem is..

Are you saying it's me, the Carvin, or something else...?

I tried a QSC in the store, but honestly, until I get it home and really try it out I'm not sure how good it is.

So, all the wise guy replies aside...what do you guys recommend to amplify Helix for use in a band situation?

Just adding to the above, the LA Studio Compressor was the game-changer for me.  On anything clean/low-to-mid gain I have found the LA Studio Compressor AFTER the amp/cab to be "the secret sauce"  I usually run the Emphasis +/- 2 (the higher the number the less emphasis bass notes have on triggering the compressor}  then sweet spot the Peak/Reduction for the feel I'm looking for.  I usually run it in limit mode.  For an SRV sound with the big clean blooming low end, I'll move the emphasis up closer to 5, so that those big single open low E notes don't get squashed.  Clean Deluxe: Emphasis 1.7 Peak/Reduction 5.6 or so.  Lower Peak# more dynamics, Higher number more "squish."  Level knob in there handy as well.    If there is other compression in the chain (either via compressor or OD/Amp compression)  it's less crucial  I'll typically reduce the Peak/Reduction and just leave it in place as an overall limiter.

 

Live the sound guys LOVE it.  You tell them in advance that you have a limiter on the patch and they can prob remove any compression from the channel to start.  

My 2 cents,

 

Texasdave

didn't occur to me to put the compressor after the amp/cab

Not sure it'll help with the harsh sound I get through my powered monitor, but I will try it. It can be downright shrill on the high end and overly distorted on the low end. That disappoints me...otherwise it's a very cool product

After about two weeks, I'll weigh in - I'm struggling with getting good (a.k.a. non-harsh) sound out of a powered monitor. I have a Carvin PM12A - sounds very harsh on the high end, and the low end seems to distort in a harsh way.

It sounds better, but not great, through my headphones. I spent hours playing around with it yesterday and got a few good sounding presets - but when I click in any distortion it just goes into the harsh realm.

I've heard some very good recordings of it, so it must be me not setting something up correctly. Kinda sucks, it's why I bailed on the HD - always sounded very harsh to me.

On my new Surface Pro 4, the Helix font is so small the app is really unusable for me. I don't see any zoom option in the app...and the windows magnifier works but really slows me down.

I've tried increasing the overall font size, doesn't seem to help with the Helix app. This is a big issue for me. Works fine on my mac, but I need it to work on the Surface Pro.

Is there any way to increase the font size within the application ?

Digital_Igloo, thanks, that was the problem. I just restarted it holding FS9 and 10 and now I'm able to assign through the software as I expected.

Appreciate the help, everyone...

Jim

Doesn't matter where you assign stomps to footswitches—the hardware or the editor—as long as you save the preset, they'll be there. The only thing that would cause weird behavior like this is if you failed to reset Helix after updating to 2.0. Holding FS9 and 10 while booting MUST be done as part of the update process. If you don't remember performing this step, please update again and follow the instructions exactly.

OH, I definitely did not do this

I'll redo the update and comment back...thanks

Unfortunately, I can't play around with it again until Friday - Traveling for work all week. I have a Surface also. I'll install the SW on this PC and see if that changes the behavior and report back on Friday or Saturday.

At least I am able to make it work with the extra step of touching the button. The guy that did the video didn't seem to be doing that, that's what prompted me to ask - well, that and intuitively I would have expected it to work differently.

Thanks, I'll drop back in later in the week with some additional info, maybe even some pictures.

One last question - when I click FS6 is there any indicator that I should see that says it's in stomp mode, or just the fact that the FS's light up ?

OK - now I understand.

 

Did FS 6 not put you in stomp mode? What exactly do you see when you hit FS6?

 

In general, you are right that this is not normal. You should be able to assign footswitches to FX blocks using either the editor or the device. You should not need to do both.

 

Are there any other anomalies in the behaviour of the editor on your system?

If I configure a preset and select it, it works fine, but if I then hit FS6 all of the FS's are turned off - that is, nothing in the display by the footswitch at all and they are not lit up. If I select the block on the screen of the Helix, or even with the software, I can touch a swtich and assign it.

​I didn't think it was working correctly as it didn't make sense to me that I'd have to do both.

The software appears to be working fine - I'm using a Mac, and running the latest version of the Helix software. I'm actually quite pleased overall with the usability, but this one thing is driving me crazy 8^)

Assigning a footswitch to control the on/off state of the FX is a separate action from actually using the footswitch to turn it on/off. If you assign the footswitch while the FX is in the off state (no light) it remains in the off state. A subsequent tap of the footswitch, or a click in the software on the power button of the FX (above and to the left of the icon) will turn theFX on.

I may not be asking the right question...still getting used to the Helix, here's my scenario:

I set up a preset for a clean amp, then added in three pedals for dirt - two 808s and a Timmy. I assigned each pedal to FS 1,2,3 respectively. I did this using the Helix software. I was following a video on how to do this.

Once I set up and saved the configuration in the software, I selected the patch on the Helix with the footswitch. When I clicked FS 6 I thought it would put me in stomp mode where I'd see the three FS assignments and be able to turn them on and off as required.

I could not do that until I selected each block, touched the FS for 2 seconds, and clicked ok to assign it. Is that the normal behavior? It seems like the software should configure the Helix without me having to touch the FS.

The video I was watching, which was very good, btw - didn't mention touching the FS - it looked like it was all configured in the SW. He was building the preset from scratch and never once mentioned touching the FS.

Thanks for your patience - this is a new world to me.

Lightly touching the FS will select the assigned block on the screen.  If you touch the FS for 2 seconds it will let you assign that FS to whichever block is currently selected on the screen.  To assign additional blocks to the same FS, just use the joystick to select the block and touch the FS for 2 seconds again.

 

If you'd like to have one effect on and the other off and then have the FS toggle between the two, just assign the first one to the FS, use the joystick to select the second one, press BYPASS to turn that block off and then assign it to the FS as well.

Thanks... so I always have to touch the FS to do the assignment? The software doesn't do it simply by selecting the FS? I'm ok with it, I thought I might be missing something

Hey guys, sorry for a boring question but I'm brand new to helix and still figuring things out.

I have a couple of nice presets created and want to be able to toggle some FX on and off. I'm using the Helix software for all of this....

When I assign an effect to a foot switch it doesn't seem to light up unless I lightly touch the switch and click the dial to accept the assignment. Is that the normal behavior or am I doing something wrong?

I was expecting to just select it the software and have it light up by the switch. It isn't happening that way.

I suspect I'm missing something...?