HX Stomp with 4 cable and two real Amps in Path A and B

[HD600]

Hello everyone,

need some help in routing the HX Stomp with two Tubeamps and one FX-Loop. This is what I try to do:

 

1. From Guitar to Input L (Bold = HX Stomp)
2. With Send (mono) to Amp1-Input
3. From Amp1-FX-Send to Return L
4. From Output L to Amp1-FX-Return
    

So far is this the normal 4 cable method and the Idea is to have the real Amp in the FX-Loop of the HX Stomp. But there is more:
 

1. From Output R to Amp2-Input
2. For this I split the Signal with a Y-Split-Block (no panning)
3. Path A is for Amp1 and have after the Split an FX-Block
4. Path B is for Amp2 without FX-Block
5. The Mixer-Block is set as shown below (Hard Panning from A and B Path):

 

 

• This Picture is only an example, normally I have an OD block after the Main Input.
• The Problem I have, also exist without Looper block at the End of the signal chain.
• Both Amps don't habe an FX-Loop, for the Vox I don't need one and the Fender goes through an Fryette Power Station with FX-Loop (but this doesn't matter for the signal chain)
• I also have analog Pedals before the first Input L of the HX that should go to both Amps (doesn't matter here)
• After the Output R are also analog Pedals that goes only to Amp2 (doesn't matter here)

 

The Problem now: If I Turn up the Gain of the Fender (Amp1 that's sit in the FX-Loop of Path A) also the Vox (Amp2) becomes more distorted. I don't understand that, I thought the two path are completely separated... Do you have any Idea why this is so and how I can avoid this?

 

It probably works (???), if I use an TRS cable from the Send with goes to both Amps, but in this way, I cannot put any blocks at the end of the chain.

 

Hope my English is understandable enough.. :-)

[rd2rk]

Is Global Settings>Ins/Outs>RETURN TYPE set to RETURN? If not, the signal from the FX Loop (the Fender) is returning directly to both outputs.

Make sure it's set to RETURN.

[HD600]

Yes, it's set to Return! 

[rd2rk]

Edit: Try this. Get an INSERT cable (TRS to Dual Mono) and take the RING lead to Amp2.

Put a Send R Block at the end of Path B.

At the MIX Block, set the Path B Level to -60db (OFF).

The TIP lead remains your 4cm for amp 1.

 

If that doesn't work:

Attach your preset (not a screenshot) and I'll see if I can duplicate the problem.

What amps are you using?

[HD600]

Hi,

thanks for answering. :-). I will check this this week, sorry, I am in Online training for two days in my work.

 

I am using an Vox AC10 and a Fender 68 custom Vibro Champ through an Fryette Power Station (with the FX-Loop). I am also using following Pedalboard:

 

The 5 Pedals from bottom right goes to the Input L, then the possibility to habe also OD-Pedal in the Stomp for both amp, then the FX Loop block with the Fender Preamp and back to Stomp. From there with with Output L to the Power Amp of the Fryette and with the Output R to the other Pedals (Delay, Hall and Ditto-Looper) to the Vox which have no fx loop.

 

This is only my momentary test situation. I am also looking to buy a Pedal Switcher (with Midi? to manage also the stomp) to have only the Pedals I am using in the signal chain. But before I will test what I really need or if my signal chain is not logical.

 

One thought: Could a Splitter (from Lehle for example) placed before the Input of the stomp using Input L and R make a difference?

 

 

[rd2rk]

8 hours ago, HD600 said:

One thought: Could a Splitter (from Lehle for example) placed before the Input of the stomp using Input L and R make a difference?

 

 

No.

This is hard to explain, but I'll try.

If you plug, for instance, a Guitar into L/Mono Input, and a Bass into R Input, then, at the split, pan A (L/Mono Input) hard Left and B (R Input) hard Right, then, at the MIX Block, do the same, you'll get totally isolated Guitar and Bass signal paths.

 

You cannot, however, Pan EITHER to one output OR the other. Whatever comes down the A/B Paths is going to BOTH Outputs, in the balance set by the Output Block Pan slider.

 

IOW - you can get MORE/LESS of one or the other, but it's going out BOTH Outputs.

 

By connecting your Amp2 Input to the R Main Out, you're routing the Amp1 signal into the Amp 2 Input. You're also possibly routing the Path B signal into the Amp1 Return, depending on how the upstream Pans are set.

 

That's why I suggested that you use a Send R Block on Path B with the MIX Block's B Level OFF and the Right (RING) Send to Amp2.

That totally isolates Path B from Path A, preventing Amp1 from hitting Amp2 via the Right Main Out.

 

Make sense? No? Trust me on this. As I type this, my guitar is on L/Mono In, my bass is on R In. I have Path A set up with guitar FX, Path B with bass FX.

Path B is routed out the SEND to my bass amp, Path A is routed out the Main Outputs to my Mixer (with input from my laptop for backing tracks) and on to a stereo amp.

And never the A/B twain shall meet!

 

 

[HD600]

Hi rd2rk,

 

going crazy with that... I'm probably to stupid... Some questions about that (if it's becoming to much for you, it's OK, I don't like to waste your time):

 

The solution you suggested, the Send R (from HX with TRS Cable) goes to Amp2 (Amp with no FX Loop). So I am not using the Output R from the HX to Amp2, right? If yes I also lose the possibility to put the HX Stereo-Looper at the End of the Chain and go to both Amps (panned left and right)?

 

I try your suggestion with the Send block but the second Amp still react to gain increment at the first amp.

[rd2rk]

12 minutes ago, HD600 said:

If yes I also lose the possibility to put the HX Stereo-Looper at the End of the Chain and go to both Amps (panned left and right)?

 

Yes.

 

32 minutes ago, HD600 said:

I try your suggestion with the Send block but the second Amp still react to gain increment at the first amp.

 

You're not doing it right. Follow the signal on Path A. Where is it entering Path B?

 

If you can't figure it out, attach your preset and I'll revisit it this evening.

[HD600]

Hi rd2rk,

 

I'am not where my Pedal are now, I will try your suggestions in the next days, sorry. One more question: Do you think the following chain is possible with the HX:

 

                                                                                                                               path A --> L(100) --> Delay1  --> Hall1 

                                              / Fender Preamp --> Input HX L -->    L                 /              R (0)                 (Stereo)         \                        / Output HX L

Guitar --> OD-Pedals --> Splitter                                                OD Stereo --> Split                                                        Mixer --> Looper 

               (analog pedals)   \ ----------------------------> Input HX R -->   R                 \                                                               /         (Stereo) \ Output HX R

                                                                                                                               path B --> L(0)      --> Delay2 --> Hall2 

                                                                                                                                                 R(100)              (Stereo)

The mixer block is also panned hard to left and right.

The Output L is going to Return of Fender amp

The Output R is going to the Vox amp Input

So I'm not using the FX Loop of the HX Stomp.

Do you thing that in this way the two Amps chain are completely separated?

 

Greetings!

 

 

[rd2rk]

13 minutes ago, HD600 said:

Do you thing that in this way the two Amps chain are completely separated?

 

No. It's not the FX Loop that's the problem.

EVERYTHING in the signal path goes out BOTH Main Outs. You can pan EVERYTHING Left, OR EVERYTHING Right.

To separate the paths you have to send Path A to the MAIN Outs, and Path B to the SEND. Or vice versa.

You MUST separate the sends as I described to send different signals to the two amps.

AND you must prevent the Path B signal from re-entering the Main Outs by turning OFF the Path B Level at the Mix Block.

[HD600]

Ok, now I'am starting to understand. So there is no way to put the Looper Block at the End and send it panned to two Amps! OK, now I have to think about, buying a third amp to make wet/dry/wet and send the Output left and right to the two wet amps, so the Looper works in stereo... (but probably only works if I'am not using an FX block in Path A...).

 

A couple of years ago, I used an Ditto stereo Looper at the End of an analog pedal signal chain to go wet and dry to two amps. This brought to this point of thinking, to be able to transpose this to the HX Stomp.

 

What about the other Helix? Is my original Idea here with the LT possible or does it need the big Helix?

 

A big thank you. :-)

[rd2rk]

If you have an EXTERNAL stereo looper you can send the Main L/Mono to one side and the Send R to the other, then pan the stereo looper L/R to keep the signal chains separate.

All 3 devices use the same Output Block. The Helix Floor has 4 FX Loops, so you could combine 2 as a Stereo Loop and use a 3rd for whatever.

 

[HD600]

OK, try your first suggestion. It does't works right for me. I still making a mistake. If you like to have a look:

 

4CM_Clean Start.hlx

 

With this Preset, the cable connections are like following:

Guitar is going to Input L(HX)

Send is going with TRS Cable, Black to Input of the Fender,  Red to the Vox Input.

From the Fender FX Send, I'a going back to Return L (HX).

From the Output L(HX) to the Fender Return.

 

In the HX I am not using the FX Return R, the Input R and the Output R.

 

Tell me to built an complicated wooden cabinet and I built it in my Head with all details.... but here... :-)

[rd2rk]

Try this one:

4CM_Clean Start2.hlx

[HD600]

Hi thanks for sending your Preset. OK, it is sounding good... but... the effects in Path A and B are only going to the Fender and nothing to the Vox. It's crazy when you try this sitting between the amps, you could think it works, but if you turn the Fender off,  there is no effect reaching the Vox. The Vox get only the effects when the Fender is on. It is still so that, if I rise the Fender Gain it have an effect in the Vox, distorting the signal.

 

I will not saying that there is no way to use this. If the Knobs are sets with a gently hands, it could sound good and have a lot of fun with this. But the Preamp of the Fender is still going to the Vox. I really don't like that for recording, I prefer to have completely separated signal chains and set up the amp at their sweet spot.

[rd2rk]

I dragged my guitar amp (Egnater) from the studio (the living room) to the office (dining room) where my HXS lives.

I set up the Egnater in 4cm using FX Loop L (tip/black), and sent FX Send R (ring/red) to my FRFR112.

Everything works.

The Master Vol on the Egnater does not affect the FRFR112.

The Path B FX do not go to the Egnater.

I turned OFF the Egnater.

I'm still getting the Path B FX on the FRFR112.

This is using the preset that I just sent.

The only possibility I can figure is a problem with either the Send Out or the insert (TRS) cable that you're using.

That sounds unlikely, but it's all I can think of.

IDK what else I can do. I have two completely separate signal chains.

It sounds great, except that the two different Delays you're using are horribly out of sync.

More troubleshooting on your end.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

 

 

[HD600]

Hi rd2rk,

 

I would like to thank you very much here. Today I get the new TRS cable I ordered and now everything's works! The old one have probably some issues... I couldn't believe it... :-)

 

Greetings

 

[rd2rk]

Rock On!