JTV acoustics with DT25/50 in 'standalone' mode

[ColonelForbin]

This is a variation on an idea Radatats had a while back. I have spent today with my DT25 head+cab connected to my PC with MIDI, and I have been messing with swapping out and trying different settings on the 8 slots for amp models.

 

If you have a DT25, and have been just using it with your HD500/HD500x, give it a try, definitely an educational experience in terms of understanding how the amp is thinking about the volumes and such between different amp models and their corresponding settings.

 

A side on that, I noticed there are three features shown in the DTEDIT software which are labeled 'DT50 only'. Oddly, one of these - 'boost' has a noticeable impact on the volume you hear when auditioning different amps. And I checked, and can verify that this 'boost' setting carries over to the DT25 when it's not connected with MIDI. From what I understand, in the DT50 the extra 12AX7 handles this boost, but in the DT25, I think it's a digital boost of some sort.

 

Variable 12AX7 Boost (DT50 only)

You can now set the 12AX7 boost per amp model. In earlier DT50 firmware versions, some amps were boosted, some were not—now you have the option to set each one however you like.

 

So, on the topic of JTV -> DT25, with the acoustic models: I discovered, while testing different combos of A and B pairings, by setting one of the amp models to 'no amp', and wow... Sounds about 99% better than going through any of the preamp models.

 

That's where this is a variation on Radatats idea, he discovered this and figured out how to program it with the POD. I took that idea, and worked it into standalone mode, where you set one of the eight amp model slots to 'no amp', and then try the different typologies - IV sounds pretty good.

 

It's worth noting, when you change between 'voicings' I-II-III-IV on the actual DT25, you are just toggling between the amp models - "voicings" as loaded/configured on it. When you are in the DTEDIT software, you are setting the amp models to the physical switches (voicing) I-II-III-IV on the DT25, AND you are also able to change the "typology" associated with each amp model 'voicing', in terms of I-II-III-IV. You don't have access to those 4 settings when in standalone mode, you have to configure them in advance.

 

A good way to think of it, is a voicing is the pairing of an amp model preamp, and set of power amp configuration instructions for the Bogner portion of the DT25 to follow. You have control over the pentode/triode, and class a/ab settings on the amp itself, but NOT the typology settings, those must be preconfigured.

 

Think of it like this: assign the same amp model preamp, say, Plexi Normal, to A-I, A-II, A-III and A-IV. Now, change the typology in each of those to be A-I = I, A-II = II, A-III = III and A-IV = IV. Though it's the same preamp in each, you will experience radical volume and tonal differences from each combination, IE, 'voicing'.

 

I think some folks have sorted out ways to use a MIDI controller to trigger those additional parameter changes.

 

Cheers!

[CipherHost]

Very interesting and an eye opener for me. After reading the Colonel's post here, I had to plug my Taylor acoustic into the front of one of my DT25 amps and try the no amp setting with DT Edit just to hear what it would sound like. It sounded like a really good representation of the guitar without needing to mic up the guitar. The only drawback is that you have no front panel EQ control but that makes sense since you don't have an amp. The preamp (voicing) vs the poweramp (topology) is made somewhat clearer when you see (and experiment with) them in DT Edit. I was using Channel B in the picture below. Sure enough, like the Colonel said, the Boost makes a "noticeable impact". I found the smooth vs tight less significant to my ears. I could not really hear a difference with the PIV being low or high but I have some old ears so maybe the younger folks on this forum will hear a difference. There were some mild tonal changes when switching topologies I - IV found under the poweramp section. There were dramatic differences with the voicing topologies I - IV found under the preamp section. There was a large difference in volume between the Class A/Class A/B and Pentode/Triode settings as would be expected.

 

Thanks Colonel for your post. I am going to send my recommendation to have you promoted to General.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ColonelForbin]

Very interesting and an eye opener for me. After reading the Colonel's post here, I had to plug my Taylor acoustic into the front of one of my DT25 amps and try the no amp setting with DT Edit just to hear what it would sound like. It sounded like a really good representation of the guitar without needing to mic up the guitar. The only drawback is that you have no front panel EQ control but that makes sense since you don't have an amp. The preamp (voicing) vs the poweramp (topology) is made somewhat clearer when you see (and experiment with) them in DT Edit. I was using Channel B in the picture below. Sure enough, like the Colonel said, the Boost makes a "noticeable impact". I found the smooth vs tight less significant to my ears. I could not really hear a difference with the PIV being low or high but I have some old ears so maybe the younger folks on this forum will hear a difference. There were some mild tonal changes when switching topologies I - IV found under the poweramp section. There were dramatic differences with the voicing topologies I - IV found under the preamp section. There was a large difference in volume between the Class A/Class A/B and Pentode/Triode settings as would be expected.

 

Thanks Colonel for your post. I am going to send my recommendation to have you promoted to General.

 

No Amp in DTEdit.tiff

 

No Amp in DT Edit.JPG

 

Yeah buddy! You got it, that was my next test; to plug a piezo acoustic guitar in. Taylor - nice!!

 

I am pretty certain that those other two settings do nothing on the DT25; they are definitely specific to the DT50. Definitely makes sense, to consider that people have always had some issues getting the 'standalone' DT25/50 to sound the same as when linked with an HD500.

 

I will need to take a closer look at the editing options in the HD500 / HDedit software, in terms of those three settings that are part of the DT amp configuration options - but I am not sure those same parameters are duplicated in the HD500; and I think there are settings in the HD500 that are not available on the DT amps. Makes sense; they use the same amp models, but are not the same in all manners.

 

Turning off the DT25 digital boost - which is on by default on MANY of the amp models- makes them ALL sound quite different to me. Those ENORMOUS volume jumps between certain amp models / typologies was also being exacerbated by the 'boost' setting. I am paraphrasing / editing from the Line statement on the firmware page, but I imagine this is accurate:

 

"Variable 12AX7 Boost (DT25)

You can now set a digital boost per amp model. In earlier DT25 firmware versions, some amps were boosted, some were not—now you have the option to set each one however you like."

 

After deciding to turn off the boost in ALL configurations; I was able to put together a set of eight 'voicings', and set them up as four pairs. I treated all four on 'A' as rhythm / clean / crunch, and set up all four on 'B' as louder / lead / high gain.

 

I wanted to be able to leave the gain / volume / tone knobs in the same place, and not have drastically louder or quieter amp models when toggling through A-I-IV and B-I-IV. I wanted to set it up, with a dual latching footswitch, to be able to toggle between A and B, and reverb on/off. Then, by hand, between songs, be able to switch over to a different 'A' and different 'B' - but not cause volume spike or drop mayhem..

 

After swapping them around several times over the last several hours, I came up with four combinations of just a select few preamps, and a few specific cabs, and using typologies I, II and IV. I found that with typology III, it's ALOT louder, no matter which preamp is paired with it. Leaving all the volume and tone controls straight up and down, (except reverb), I was able to basically swap between A-I. A-II, A-III, A-IV with out any major volume spikes, except when using typology III!

 

I was aiming for the sets to be A-I and B-I, both using typology I - A-II and B-II using typology II, and so forth. I did a set of typology I, one of II, and two of IV.

 

I am going to do a microphone setting test next. Here is an easy way to audition the microphone setting - it's global on the DT edit - and I am guessing that setting is what determines the XLR DI output - whether in standalone OR when using Line6Link... Need to test that!

 

Anyway - standalone you don't hear the mic, so try this - put the DT in low volume mode, and leave it in standby.

Run the XLR out to a full range / monitor speaker, and it still sends that signal in LVM when the amp is in standby!

 

Going to try that next. Got used to just hearing the SM57 off axis, figure it's worth test driving the other microphone configurations too!

[ColonelForbin]

 

try this - put the DT in low volume mode, and leave it in standby.

Run the XLR out to a full range / monitor speaker, and it still sends that signal in LVM when the amp is in standby!

 

Going to try that next. Got used to just hearing the SM57 off axis, figure it's worth test driving the other microphone configurations too!

 

Ok, I tried that, and I discovered that the 'boost' setting does nothing in low volume mode!

Also, the typology setting didn't seem to have any effect on the sound either.

 

So, I went back to full power mode, and just recorded the various mic options, tried to play similar riffs each new setting.

Also recorded a Shure beta 57a, off axis on the closed back cab. Interesting sound, when you pan them left and right, since it's the same peformance, but a variation in the tonal character, especially when using mic models other than the SM57.

 

Might work more with that idea for live sound.. Next test, need to determine if the 'standalone' mic setting in the DT25 impacts the XLR out when using the HD500 linked. That could be huge - run two DT25's, and set different mic models in each, so the XLR outputs sound different.

[ColonelForbin]

Oh yeah, for what it's worth, here is "take one" of configuring my DT25 head in 'standalone mode'. Going to take a pass with the DT25 combo too, maybe try different setting ideas. One idea I had early on, was to make each A/B pair a set of the amp models that have two channels modeled.

 

like,

A-I = plexi normal,

B-I = plexi bright;

 

A-II = solo 100 crunch

B-II = solo 100 overdrive

 

A-III = Bassman normal

B-III = Bassman bright

 

A-IV = P-75 normal

B-IV = P-75 bright

 

stuff like that. The SLO models work well for that! Some of the other models have considerable volume differences between the channels modeled. For starters, I targeting amp models and settings that "play well" together at basically equal volume and tone settings. Don't want to have to redial in the amp just to toggle between the other amp model 'A and B' options!

 

So, here is take 1: (note these setting on all: *409 dynamic mic model,  '63 spring reverb, pentode, class A/B)

(* the best way to figure out what this needs to be for your sound, is to connect the XLR out to your live sound system, and either get someone to play, or listen to you play, and also maybe record that signal. Maybe have a mic so you can note what change you are making - like "409 dynamic mic, plexi channel A, or 121 ribbon, treadplate. Unfortunately, you can only set this globally, unlike when using the POD in studio direct, when you can program patches with mic model changes. I still need to spend some time figuring out which mic model I want to use - was getting a ton of bass in certain mic models, and harsh tones in others, but also varied by amp model, so it's a moving target - some compromise of a mic setting that works well, and pairs nicely with an actual SM57 is my goal.)

 

Channel A: [rhythm / clean / crunch]

 

Voicing A-I:    Blackface Double Vib / 2x12 Blackface Double cab / Topology I

Voicing A-II:   Brit Plexi Bright / Brit T-75 cab / Topology II

Voicing A-III:  Solo 100 Crunch / 4x12 Greenback 25 cab / Topology IV

Voicing A-IV:  Brit P-75 Normal / 4x12 Blackback 30 / Topology IV

 

Channel B: [louder / crunch / lead]

 

Voicing A-I: Brit J-800 / 2x12 Blackface Double cab / Topology I

Voicing A-II: Brit J-800 / 4x12 Brit T-75 cab / Topology II

Voicing A-III: Solo 100 Overdrive / 4x12 Greenback 25 cab / Topology IV

Voicing A-IV: Treadplate / 4x12 Tread V30 cab / Topology IV

[CipherHost]

Wow, some really good ideas here. I really like the methodical way you're using to learn how each of the components effect the tones you can get. I also like the idea of switching between the channels and the variety of amps/cabs/mics etc. we have access to when switching between them.

 

It's my understanding that when these parameters are set with DT Edit, they stay that way the next time we power up the amp. Even if we L6 Link to the HD500X and run through a bunch of patches, we can still come back to the amp later and just plug straight into the front of the amp and all those DT Edited amps are still there for us to use without the HD500X. 

 

I bought my HD500X before I bought the DT25s. When I first started playing through the DTs, it sounded like I got better tones plugging straight into the front of the amp as opposed to using the POD. After reading several posts on this forum, it turns out I didn't do a good job of creating my POD patches to match playing straight into the DT. I've got some patches pretty close but they still need work to match. Maybe it's my imagination, but I still think I get a better tone when I run from my guitar into the Ibanez TS9 I bought 30 years ago into the front of the amp compared to going guitar into the TS9 into the POD L6 linked to the DT25. I'm pretty sure I could pick out in a blind test my TS9 plugged into the POD vs the modeled TS9 in the POD. It's a really good model but not the same to my ears. 

 

I'm excited about exploring what you have started here. The only problem is it's finals week at work (I teach at a community college) and things get really busy at this time of the semester. I won't be able to do much experimenting till the weekend. I'll be back to post what I find out on my end.

 

Thanks again for your latest updates!

[ColonelForbin]

Quick update on the experiment - configured A-I and B-I to be 'none' for amp model on the DT25, set A-I to topology II, B-I to topology IV.

Plugged the JTV into HD500, linked to the DT25. Using a blank patch with no amp model, with the DT set to A-I / B-I works as hoped!

 

And it sounds sweet! And, the XLR out from the DT25 to the L2t's sounded excellent as well. I am optimistic this will be how I use the JTV in acoustic and electric modes, with the DT25 linked to the HD500! The real test will be jamming with the guys at volume (with drums!), but thus far, pretty good..

 

By defining no model in both the DT25 and the HD500, it definitely makes all the acoustic and reso tones sound pretty sweet. I was doing some looper jams, and just toggling through the sitar, banjo, tricone, even the 12 strings sound nice.

 

And, if you put the -12 bass octaver in the HD500, you get a gnarly, passable bass tone! Sounds wild with the banjo and sitar; gives the bass note a cool almost auto-wah tone.

 

Radatats had originally presented the idea about using the JTV with the DT way back when, so credit where it's due!

I just never thought to also remove the amp model from the DT25, since I was rarely ever using the amp without the HD500.

 

Will need to spend some time with my patches now; go back to using the VDI cable, and trigger JTV model changes with each patch change.

I haven't used that feature before, so I am psyched to make use of it!