2.81 midi din out not working when sending notes over USB

[shemeshg]

1. in logic pro or any other DAW, open Midi Channel

2. in the midi channel select 'HELIX' as port

3. connect external sound module to the MIDI OUT DIN

4. Send some notes using keyboard or create a region with some notes

Expected:

Sound is produced on external module

However:

No MIDI data sent from the Helix.

 

[ there is another issue with MIDI IN DIN,

of keyboard connected to MIDI IN DIN, and playing any note would produce Loopback by the USB-MIDI-IN,

however according to Line6 support, this fix is 

more of a feature request, so lets leave that aside.. ]

[rd2rk]

I have my MIDI synth MIDI DIN OUT connected to Helix MIDI DIN IN.

Helix MIDI DIN OUT is connected to my MIDI synth MIDI DIN IN.

Helix connected to laptop via USB.

Laptop running Reaper.

Everything set to MIDI Channel 1.

Helix Globals-MIDI/Tempo settings :

MIDI Thru = ON

MIDI Over USB = ON

 

Recorded MIDI track from my MIDI synth into Reaper.

Played back MIDI track in Reaper using my MIDI synth as external sound module.

 

Everything seems to work as expected.

No Loopbacks.

Am I missing something?

[shemeshg]

Actually, I see that the MIDI OUT DIN is ok.

The problem was that the loopback, bug caused Helix system overload.

 

So the  *** OUT DIN is ok. my mistake***

 

The loopback bug, will not impact Reaper, since you specify your input keyboard as the midi input port.

However in Logic Pro, we have "ALL" (all devices) as input by default, and since then

 

The loopback bug:

- note sent out of MIDI DIN -> Sent also USB MIDI IN

 

it caused loopback,

 

it is possible to walk-around by ignoring midi in from Helix.  at the logic midi environment

[rd2rk]

4 hours ago, shemeshg said:

The loopback bug, will not impact Reaper, since you specify your input keyboard as the midi input port.

 

Re-read my post. The synth midi out is connected to the Helix midi in, therefore the midi port in Reaper is set to the Helix.

 

4 hours ago, shemeshg said:

However in Logic Pro, we have "ALL" (all devices) as input by default, and since then

 

The loopback bug:

- note sent out of MIDI DIN -> Sent also USB MIDI IN

 

it caused loopback,

 

I repeated the experiment in LIVE 10. The only problem I encountered was that I forgot to turn off the track monitor button. That caused a feedback loop. I then went back to Reaper and turned ON the track monitor button. Feedback loop!

 

Do you have the track monitor button ON? Maybe that's the problem. Apart from that, I had no problem recording and playing back midi through the Helix.

[shemeshg]

Hi

Here instruction for reproducing the issue in Live 10.

1. Start new project, press tab to switch "Project view" from "loop view"

2. in the "1 Midi" set the record on [red]

3. in the "1 Midi" set dropbox  from up to down as follows:

- "CASIO USB" or any other external keyboard you have

- Keep default of "All Channels" [it is the input channel, of the keyboard so it is not matter'

- "auto" button on [yellow]

- HELIX [This is the output port]

- Ch 1 [this the the channel of you hardware synth

4. Press any key like "Do"

*** Here everything should work correctly

 

5. Change the first dropdown to - "All Ins"

6. Press any key like "Do"

You will see that 

- Helix is keep re-sending the Do(C4) over end over again

- lights on the Live10 always on. indicating loop.

- lights in the hardware synth indicate loop.

 

7 test that with Focusrite soundcard or any other usb midi device and see it is only occurs with Helix.

 

The Loopback you've mentioned 'track monitor' is wave partial cancellation, and not actually recursive midi data loopback that overload the Helix 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

 

 

Above is a screenshot from LIVE 10.

"The Loopback you've mentioned 'track monitor' is wave partial cancellation, and not actually recursive midi data loopback that overload the Helix "

 

I think you're referring to a different button than I am. See the screenshot. That's a straight-up full on TRACK MONITOR, not a whatever gobbledygook you're talking about. It's called AUTO, because it's supposed to set itself AUTOMATICALLY depending on whether you're recording or playing back

And there's the problem. AUTO MUST BE OFF to make it work! 

 

 

 

When you use a synth's DIN OUT connected to Helix DIN IN, the MIDI IN "Port" in LIVE will be Helix.

If your synth has it's own drivers, and is connected by straight USB cable (no interface), that's the only time it's going to appear as a selection in the MIDI IN drop-down in LIVE. Maybe because my synth is ancient (Seiko DS-250) and ONLY HAS DIN Out/In connectors (no USB), I'm not able to duplicate your problem, but I THOUGHT you were trying to use the Helix MIDI DIN connectors to get this done?

Edited September 14, 2019 by rd2rk
Image removed to recover attachment allotment

[shemeshg]

Hi

 

Sorry, for the mis understanding,

1. indeed it is required USB keyboard

I've tried using webMidi test page and it was not reproducible (https://jazz-soft.net/download/web-midi/web-midi-test.html)

2. no need to connect anything to the Helix MIDI IN DIN, only MIDI OUT DIN

 

when set TRACK MONITOR to "OFF" nothing is actually sent when I play on the keyboard so I have to set it is AUTO

 

 

 

I guess, It is good though to set it to OFF when using module/keyboard that don't have "ECHO OFF" mode, to avoid playing back the same note.

(like a casio digital piano, or when connecting the external sound module back to the Helix midi in)

But here the problem is infinit  looping and not just the same note itself

 

Here compared tested with Focusrite Soundcard and all ok

[rd2rk]

So, bottom line, this has nothing to do with Helix DIN ports.

What I can do EASILY on my ancient Seiko DS-250 (think 1980s) with no USB, you can't do on your modern USB keyboard? I'm not buying it.

 

Next experiment:

I converted my ancient Seiko to USB by connecting a DIN (IN/OUT) to USB interface. I connected the Helix OUT DIN (set to THRU) to my eDrums (external sound module).

Helix Base channel on 1, LIVE MIDI Output set to Helix, Channel 10 ( the channel my eDrums receive on).

With the AUTO button ON. recorded NOTES from the Seiko via USB to LIVE, playback from LIVE via USB to Helix, Helix DIN OUT to eDrums DIN IN.

NO loopback, NO recording problem, eDrums play back just fine. Here's the LIVE Configuration screenshot:

 

 

 

That's as close as I can come to your configuration, and everything works as it should. 

 

Try setting your external sound module to a different channel.

 

Try looking into the CASIO's MIDI config settings.

 

It's hard to believe that a 30 year old synth connected to a $5 USB interface can do what your modern CASIO can't.

 

It's GOTTA be somewhere in the MIDI settings!

 

It's DEFINITELY, ABSOLUTELY and in MULTIPLE CONFIGURATIONS DEMONSTRATED that IT'S NOT the HELIX!

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by rd2rk
Image removed to recover attachment allotment

[shemeshg]

Hi

 

Your test WAS OK, you were just one click away from the bug. just set to "ALL INS"

 

I've repeated your last experiment and in did it was ok, However to trigger the loopback bug you would have to switch from USB2-0-MIdi to "all ins"

Here I've repeated your experiment where Focustrite ss my simple Midi using external Roland old usb keyboard . (No more Casio, no more USB directly connected)

 

Here where it is ok:

 

Here you should see it loopback:

 

 

Notice that after loopback occurs, no notes will be sent to external DIN and the Helix needs to be reboot 

 

 

It he picture you see as constant lights but these lights in the Live10 gone wild and Helix would require restart to play any midi note.

 

Your test WAS OK, you were just one click away from the bug. just set to "ALL INS"

 

BTW - Really deeply thank you

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

I guess what I don't understand is why you think that because a gasoline engine won't run on diesel, that constitutes a bug in the engine......

[shemeshg]

To wrap-up the discussion. now that we both on the same page managed to recreate the issue: 

1.  This bug does not occurs on any other interface (Synths, or soundcards I have, or generic midi interface).

only Helix has this bug

2. It is easy to solve by code (Just do not re-echo requests sent to all-ins through Helix,), easy to reproduce, easy to debug.

it is just a matter of programmer forgot to Own the all-inst event before resending it, so it will not re-re-re-sent

 

3. Logic Pro Unlike Live 10, do not have independent midi engine per track.

Logic has one "Midi environment" window for all project and tracks.

=> By default Helix Out Din will not work on Logic Pro, 

      (unless creating something like /dev/null object from the Helix input).

3.1 This is definitely not standard request from a user to mess with "Midi Environment" because Helix Re-eco request sent to "all-ins"

 

I do however agree that in live10 it is almost not issue at all.

 

Anyway

Thanks for response