HX Stomp + Amp (GPA-100) + Orange Cab - Gain issues

[derbob]

Hello everybody,
 

I’ve got some weird level-issues in my setup and have no idea where I fail.
I'd be absoultly grateful for some advise :)
 

Some time ago I prepared the „perfect“ sounding preset for me.
It has 3 snapshots. Boom!
 

OUTPUT L should go directly to the FOH (Line-Level)
SEND L should go into the GPA-100 and into my 16 Ohm Orange Cab for personal monitoring.

(Btw. It's the Harley Benton GPA-100. Similar to a SD Power Stage 170... just in "cheap".)

This is the how the preset is built:

 

EQ Parametric
EQ Acoustic Sim
DIST Scream 808
AMP Cali Rectifire
EQ High/Low Shelf
Send L Block (-> goes to GPA-100)
IR-Block
Output L (-> goes to FOH)
 

Output L and Send L are set to LINE-LEVEL.
GPA-100 expects LINE-LEVEL Input.
Outputs for cab:

100 W @ 8 Ω

190 W @ 4 Ω
No Idea what it does at 16  Ω  but should be more than enough.

HX-Stomp Send -> Instrument-Cable -> GPA-100 Input.
GPA-100 Output -> Loudspeaker Cable -> Orange Cab 16 Ohm.
All cables work. Double checked.
 

The problem:
The GPA-100 is too quiet to compete with the drums.
But it should actually have enough headroom to be cranked up as f***….
The Volume-Knob of the GPA-100 stops amplifying the signal at middle position.
There’s basically almost no difference between middle position and maximum position.

I tried to crank up Send-Block to the max without success.
I placed a Gain-Block before the Send-Block and went +20dB or so… no success.
GPA-100 just doesn’t care… it just starts to indicate that the signal is too hot.
 

Than I created a completely new preset which has only a Benzina Lead Amp block in it and a send block.
Cranked up the master of the amp block. And boom. This works. Why? No idea...
At least I have a huge amount of headroom on the GPA.
 

That means:
The GPA should definitely have the power to amplify my sound and compete with the drums. Since it works with the new preset.
 

It also means:
Something must be limiting the output level of the SEND signal.
Even if I remove the IR-Block and use the Output L to go to the GPA, it just doesn’t provide the power.
 

The question would be:
What might be causing the low output on the Send L Block.
I can’t find the problem inside my „perfect“ preset.
 

(While writing this I’m thinking if maybe it’s the High/Low Shelf EQ in-between the the Amp and the Send. But won’t be able to test this in the next 24h)
 

Nevertheless…
Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance. :)

 

[rd2rk]

I duplicated your preset as best I could with default settings on all blocks and and ran the send out to my HR FRFR112.

 

With the volume barely cracked it was too loud for my apartment.

 

Attach your preset and I'll test it out.

 

 

 

[derbob]

Oh! Awesome! Thank you soooo much. :)
The preset should be hopefully attached now.
No IR included. But for the sake of completness I have at least an old screenshot of the IR Block settings.
(Just in case it matters.)

Thank you! :)





DS Main.hlx

[derbob]

One more idea I had in mind was to cerate a full Y-Split before the IR block(or even the High/Low Shelf block ).
And maybe than add a Gain Block on the B path which goes to the send.

[rd2rk]

I don't think a Y-split is going to help.

 

SS1 is strong. Equal to basic amp/IR/Send (see below*), which you said sounds fine.

If this isn't loud enough with a drummer, the GPA-100 just hasn't got the balls for use with a 16ohm cab.

It may well be that the rating for 16ohm isn't given for a reason...

 

SS2 is weaker. By design?

SS3 is downright anemic. That's probably due to the -18db cut in the Acoustic Sim Block.

 

*I repeated your simple preset - amp and send only - with the Rectifire and then the DB Lead.

Levels were virtually identical and no need to crank the master on either to get it loud.

Both were equivalent level to your SS1, maybe louder by a couple db (ch vol - see below).

 

Troubleshoot by starting in SS1, bypassing all blocks except the amp and IR, channel volume at default (5.7).

Is it loud enough? If no, see my note on SS1.

If yes, add blocks back in until you find the culprit.

In the course of doing that you'll find out why you cut the channel volume to 3.7.

Repeat on the other snapshots.

 

You can try for an overall boost by raising the IR output level, but normal IR levels are -18db and you've got it set at -13db already. Won't hurt anything to crank it, but it's a band-aid solution.

 

I'm just guessing here, but I think what's happening with the GPA-100 volume topping out at halfway is that it's designed to respond like a tube amp. When you crank the master on a tube amp it only gets so loud, then starts to compress. Some call it getting "squishy" and they like it. A simple class D amp just gets louder until it can't get any louder or the speakers blow.

 

 

 

 

[derbob]

First of all. Thanks for diggin in that deep.
That helps me a lot identify and understand some things. :)

SS1 is basically the crucial Snapshot which needs to compete with the rest.

Heavy & gritty. At least with my main guitar.

SS2 is weaker on purpose.

SS3 Tried to mimmik a single-coil clean sound.
I did the cut because else it was way too boomy and bassy compared to the other Snapshots.

To avoid confusion: Running all these Snapshot through the Output with the IR loaded to the FOH sounds definitley fine to me. No issues at all.
It's all about getting the personal monitor sound loud enough that goes via the GPA. 

 

Quote

I'm just guessing here, but I think what's happening with the GPA-100 volume topping out at halfway is that it's designed to respond like a tube amp.

Jep... this could really be the main issue. With the Quilter Interblock 45 I can go much louder. Allthough it has less "power". But the GPA just sounds a loooooot better.
But when we (me and another Stomp owener) tried another HX-Amp (Benzina Lead I think it was). The Benzina worked pretty well and was deifnitley louder than the Cali Rectifire. While doing this. We also found out that cranking up the channel volume had most impact.
(Sorry - in my inital post I said "master". But I remember now it was the Channel Volume)

 

Quote

You can try for an overall boost by raising the IR output level, but normal IR levels are -18db and you've got it set at -13db already.

Good point. ...hmm.... though.. I guess that raising the IR Level won't affect the SEND. I should rather try the other way. Lowering the IR-Levels and crank up the channel volume instead. This way the Send should get better levels to work better with the GPA-100 and its design.

Nevertheless....

I guess here are enough good starting points to attack this tonite.
Much appreciated! :)





 

[derbob]

Alright! I also didn’t really think the Y-Split would help.
But. It definitley did .
The Send-Output was noticeably higher and worked much better with the GPA-100.
No idea why...  xD
Cranking up the Send level also helped.
And also a gain block before the Send did useful things.

If I'd start from scratch I'd definitley would go higher with the Channel Volumes of the Amp-Block.
Can't tell yet if the GPA is in general enough for a 212 Orange PPC with 16Ohm.
But with this preset I get just enough overall power for rehearsals.

Cheers!
Bob

PS: @rd2rk ...once again thanks for your help. :)