Community: Message List - Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:27:09 GMT

Some positive news; it seems that many of the amplifier models in the POD HD have a "HUM" adjustment, and when set to 0%, most if not all of the ghost note disappears. Why hasn't anyone (hello L6, you out there?) suggested this?

Too bad this feature is not available in the POD X3.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:57:32 GMT

Yep,

The POD HD has them as well.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Sun, 09 Sep 2012 19:58:03 GMT

That's difficult to swallow.

Further research into the so-called "ghost-note" issue has revealed that it is extrememly unlikely that these discordant notes are ghost notes modeled from the amplifiers.

There are at least a dozen amplifier models in the POD X3 and Spider IV amplifier (and probably many more products) exhibiting this problem, and the suspicious fact that makes it difficult to believe these are modeled after the amplifier itself, is that every one of these models exhibits the exact same discordant note. One would expect each amplifier that was being modeled would exhibit its own unique-sounding artifact, yet this is NOT the case with these modeled amplifiers.

Have a listen for yourself and come to the only logical conclusion available.

PS. I have not yet listened to the POD HD, but I will report back what I find in this regard.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:26:18 GMT

I can see how ghost notes can hide within a mix, but when it's time to put one foot on the monitor wedge and play Eruption I'd rather play an amp that doesn't have ghost notes a mere 10dB below signal level. Preferences. Taste. Whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VanHalenStoreDOTcom

http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterTracks18

or google "Guitar+Hero+Van+Halen+XBOX+Tracks+Normalized+Pitch+Tempo+fixed" (I'm not linking because of questionable legal status of those files)

Happy ghost hunting, peace.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:59:31 GMT

>>To name a few, do you hear much ghosting on the Plexis of EVH, George Lynch, Michael Schenker? Why not? Because they have cherry picked a good one. Or hire a J. Arredondo or R. Smith et al to fix it.<<

Because the guitars are mixed.

The sound changes a lot when mixed in a song.

And believe it or not, those harmonics are what in most cases makes you say "what a cool vibrato", when you hear a thick, strong note in old rock songs.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:06:37 GMT

Hm, he says that they have tried hard to find the best amp of a series as the master sample for modelling. But they have even modelled so called "defects" in order to get authentic sounds ... but they would take out what might be potentially less desirable.

I would read it like this: When there is a speficic behavior of an amp series, they would try to reproduce it (so called signature sound). But when an certain effect is - by the community - more regarded as a fault, they would not resample that.

Nevertheless: In the manual I don't read something like "we have modelled those cool ghost notes" ;-)

Wolfgang

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:31:18 GMT

I'm in too good a mood to take that Boringer remark personally. Believe it or not, some unsuspecting sap bought my Vamp2pro for 140Euros off ebay, to each his own.

Comparing pickup modeling with amp modeling does not compute on many levels.

Following your argument the removal/omission of microphonic feedback and stratitis from the pickup emu, renders them un-authentic too. /s

Of course I want the utmost level of accuracy, still, I wouldn't play a ghost note riddled 12xxx Plexi just because of it's nameplate and serial number. I'd take it to the bench and restore intended functionality, or buy a properly serviced amp in the first place.

Overly prominent ghosting cannot possibly be a desirable characteristic. If L6 is modeling/emulating/simulating/approximating a circuit down to the component level they might as well have fixed that.

To name a few, do you hear much ghosting on the Plexis of EVH, George Lynch, Michael Schenker? Why not? Because they have cherry picked a good one. Or hire a J. Arredondo or R. Smith et al to fix it.

The best view under the hood I found so far is http://www.gearwire.com/marcus-ryle.html

Has anyone ever found more in depth info?

BTW, sanitized , have a listen to ZZ Top - Rhythmeen - Loaded.

Is this a broken amp, cable, overloaded input, master on 11?

Does it even matter in lieu of the outcome?

Note to self: shut up and play yer guitar.

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:42:51 GMT

Hi Crusty,

this turns out to become a philosophical discussion. Personally, I'm going for a digial amp modeller in order to have an unexpensive, light weight, flexible pre amp. I just want to have the tone, I'm not interested in having that very authentic sound of a specific valve amp. Right now I'm probably preferring the Pod over the tonelab, since the pod has - from my personal view - way more usable sounds. The Pod's Wah is way better than the Wah of the Tonelab. In addition I have the XLR outputs, an Post-Amp-Compressor & EQ ... So I'm happy with it.

Wolfgang

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:42:11 GMT

You're right, they are perfect models of imperfect amps. It is definitely the power capacitor idiocyncrasies that have been modelled. They modelled the classic old amps the way they received them. They didn't send them off to be updated and modified before modelling them.

As for your suggestion that it's the algorithms rather than accurate modelling - don't you think it's a massive coincidence that what you describe as digital artifacts only appears on the amp models that are known to produce these ghost notes, that the ghost notes sound the same as on the vintage originals and are most prominant under the same circumstances as the ghost notes on the vintage originals??? That some pretty selective digital artifacting, don't you think?

If you go and check out a Variax you will gain a deeper appreciation for just how clever Line 6 modelling really is. Any experienced guitarist knows that the position of the neck pickup in the Fender Stratocaster results in it not properly picking up harmonics when played. The Variax Strat model does exactly this. What's seriously impressive is that if you move the position of that pickup using workbench you can move it to where it will pickup the string harmonics. So Line 6 didn't just model the sound of the Strat they actually MODELLED THE PHYSICS of the guitar. Just like they modelled the physics (including the old power caps) of the unadulterated vintage amps.

I would never suggest that Line 6 put the ghost notes into the modern amp models and render them un-authentic. Just as I would not suggest they remove them from the vintage amp models, thus rendering them un-authentic.

People who don't like this level of accuracy in their amp models would probably be happier with a ZOOM or Behringer device.

Cheers,

Crusty

Re: Odd Harmonics with some Amp Models when Increasing Drive

support@line6.com — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:24:20 GMT

wbruessler wrote:

So is there any Line6 statement about those ugly harmonics? If they really choose to emulate those "tube amp bugs", I would consider this as a bad decision. Luccily there are enough amp models without that "feature". Overall I'm happy with the device right now.

Wolfgang

There was an official statement from Line 6 way back when they first released the original POD and the article has long since disappeared from the internet.

What you call a bad decision I call an amazingly fantastic and clever decision. Seriously what better way to model a vintage amp in a truly convincing way. If you don't like the accurately modelled vintage amps then use the modern ones or the Line 6 originals. There is something there for everyone.

Cheers,

Crusty