Community: Message List - Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Thu, 03 Jan 2013 04:14:49 GMT

hi cwlivingston

I know this thread is old, but anyway I wanted to advise you and anyone interested to read another thread I started:

here you can find some answers to your questions just by following the signal flow on the graphs I drew and reading the description I wrote below them

please read it and only after reading that come back here and read this:

your setup with only path-A active has nothing wrong but is by no means different from other setups obtaining exactly the same gain staging and stereo-mono routing

for example if you set:

- guitar/same as the two inputs

- mixer channel-A level to unity and pan to center and path-B to mute

these four setups give you exactly the same gain and "mono-to-stereo" panning:

also with this last setup, if you set:

- guitar/same as the two inputs

- mixer channel-A and B levels to unity and pan hard left and right

you get the same result in a fifth way.

notice that this fifth way is exactly the default "new tone" blank patch (with guitar/same instead ov everything/same as input selection);

see here: http://line6.com/support/message/405388#405388

bye

Lore

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Tue, 21 Jun 2011 01:20:52 GMT

This has been a very interesting discussion, If possible, I'd like to see an actual patch from start to finish if possible so I can really understand what's going on.

Dan

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Sun, 19 Jun 2011 06:42:02 GMT

I believe this is what a starting patch would look like from your description.

I just used a default J-45 as an example.

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:38:01 GMT

+1 Much appreciate you sharing this info..very helpful to my understanding of this.

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 18:33:37 GMT

Glad to help. Wish L6 weren't being so unresponsive on this issue. They seem to feel that we're pouting about something insignificant.

Once you get your gain staging set, though, it is a great sounding modeler. I haven't tried the Avid11 or AxeFx so I can't compare, but I'm not a pro guitarist anymore and $1000+ for a guitar product isn't in the budget. For $500 the HD is a big winner.

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:58:20 GMT

I'm currently waiting for the POD HD to hit the retailers here in Sweden, so I downloaded the manual to read it beforehand and have it all kind of figured out when the unit comes.

No strange things at all, as expected, except for this more than slightly confusing signal routing from the inputs...

I have to agree with cwlivingston, they sure have made it more complicated than it should be. Having a true mono setup available as a "default" seems like a better starting place for most guitarists instead of this advanced routing.

This actually made me hesitate to buy the Bean, even though I'm not afraid of having to figure out signal routings and other problems.

Thanks to cwlivingston for taking time to experiment and inform us about about the findings...

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:17:20 GMT

Ok, ok, ok.

I read that same section 3 or 4 times before posting originally. Will come back to that in a second.

It doesn't change the fact that the default "out of the box" summed inputs are unintuitive and create extra noise and potentially unwanted gain. All I was saying is, seems like in a company full of guitar players, someone would have thought of this. It's a well known axiom now that less gain = bigger sound. Excessive preamp saturation = more compression = thinning tone.

Having said that, my original question was, how do you know what unity gain actually is?, and I appreciate your ideas and thoughts on that. It occurred to me today that I also could have disabled both amps, listened to dry guitar, and isolated for all variables until I figured it all out. But who wants to do that?

The problem with that manual section you reference is that when it describes the summing effect, it recommends turning down your "instrument's" volume to compensate. Most musicians using this unit will be guitarists. When you turn down your guitar's volume pot, you usually lose some tone and responsiveness. Some pots and circuits are less prone to this effect than others, but all passive electric guitars suffer from this to some degree. Surely L6 must know that. So turning down your volume pot is a terrible suggestion for most players.

I don't want to niggle over a borderline insufficient manual description. Life moves on. But lots of HD500 users clearly don't like this input setup, and denying that it's a valid criticism only makes these users frustrated.

Saying "well, that's what the 300 and 400 are for" is a little flippant. I got the HD500 because I wanted a desktop config. and all 8 effects blocks, esp. after I read that reverb, vol, LA-2A, gate, and wah each use up a block (the old XT gives you all these as "freebies" in your chain, leaving 3 more blocks available). So the 300 and 400 didn't fit the bill for me; you could eat up your whole chain with the basics and not have any blocks left for a mod or filter or delay.

I gotta move on here, no more posting on this for me, have spent enough time on this. But thanks for the input (no pun intended).

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:34:12 GMT

Actually, I may have to take back what I said earlier about it not being described well enough in the manual - I just took a look at the Advanced Guide for the bean, and it's described pretty well.

The page 3 options allow you to select either the “GUITAR” or “MIC” physical inputs to be used as the “Source” Inputs 1 and/or 2. These settings are saved per Preset.
About Source Input Signal Routing: It is important to note how POD HD actually routes Source Inputs 1 and 2 through Amp & FX Blocks that are positioned “Pre” position. The following behaviors apply:

• In a configuration with no Amp or FX Blocks in Pre, Input 1 is fed only to Path A and Input 2 only to Path B. Therefore, this is the best configuration if you want to retain discrete Input Sources into Paths A & B.
• Placing an Amp Block or an active mono FX Model in Pre results in a “summing” of Input Sources 1 & 2, feeding the same, combined signal into these Pre-positioned Models, and thus into each Path A & B. You may need to adjust your instrument’s volume level to avoid overloading your Pre-positioned Amp or FX Models.
• Placing a Stereo FX Model in Pre results in the left channel FX output being fed to Path A and its right output to Path B.*
• The Mixer Block’s Volume and Pan options provide independent control for Path A & B outputs before they are fed through any Blocks positioned “Post” the Mixer.
• By setting Input 2 to “Same,” this effectively routes your Input Source to both stereo Paths A & B (which is how you can feed one guitar input into two Amp Models and/or parallel FX, for example).

It doesn't outright say that you'd want to mute Path B for a true mono path. I don't think that this level of complexity is too much to expect for a device that offers as much as the Bean or the HD500. Let's not forget that for those who don't want to deal with it, there's always the HD300 or 400.

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:52:21 GMT

I'm traveling on business all week so uploading a preset isn't an option for me right now, but I'll try to next week.

But basically, if you want to use my idea, just make sure that you arrange the (pre-mixer) amp and FX blocks so that the signal flow line is split to parallel at the very start - at the far left of the edit screen. AND, all (pre-mixer) FX and amp blocks are on that same path.

Then, make sure the other path's amp block is disabled.

Then, set the mixer channel A to 0 dB level (you can adjust to taste later) and pan center.

Set channel B level to mute (otherwise you'll hear the dry guitar coming into your sound unless you have input 2 set to mic in utilities). Pan B is kind of irrelevant in this scenario unless you later activate amp B. If you do activate amp B later, make sure your utilities input settings are 1. Guitar, 2. Guitar or Same. If 2 is set to mic, your guitar won't feed into amp B at all.

Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

support@line6.com — Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:43:29 GMT

You spotted the weakness in my idea, I didn't even think about that until you said it. There are several work-arounds, each with pros/cons.

I agree with you on all points!

We shouldn't need a "work-around", though, it's a really weird input setup.