Community: Message List - Switching patches? POD HD500!

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:44:23 GMT

At it's simplest: it does not matter where you put the FX block, provided your 'front of amp' effects are before the FX block and your 'Amp loop' effects are after. Just make sure that the HD amp model is turned off.

More realistically, the biggest headache with 4CM (after the mad cabling) is getting levels right within the setup. Ideally, you want the JCM pre-amp and the HD Amp models to be feeding the JCM Power amp with the same volumes as if you were just using the JCM on its own. This takes a little doing but as a guide, the setup for my JVM is a follows - from a post on the JVM forum. This may need a little tweaking for your JCM and may vary depending on tubes etc.

As a reference: this my 4CM standard setup now.

HD500 FX Level switch = stompbox level.
HD500 1/4" output switch = Line Level.
HD500 Master vol=100% (or lower, if you don't care about power amp distortion benefits and want control of your amp from the floor)
JVM Switchable loop level switch = -10dBV.
JVM FX Loop Mix = 100% Wet
JVM channel volumes around 2-3 O'clock. Clean gain around 2 O'clock, other gains to whatever.
JVM Masters wherever suits you.
For an effects-only patch, using the JVM Pre-amp, my levels are set as follows.
Input 1 = Guitar. Input 2 = Variax (for Noise reduction).
An FX Block in the middle of the patch. Mixer at the very end of the patch.
Studio EQ just before the FX Block. No EQ set but gain raised by +6dB (if the guitar input level switch is set to 'normal') or +11.5dB (if the guitar input switch is set to 'Pad'). This compensates for a level drop between the HD Input and the HD FX Loop.
FX block return level set to +5dB. This compensates for a volume drop when the amp loop is switched on.
Mixer channel A set to -14dB. Pan Centre. Mixer channel B set off. Note you may need to set channel B as per A if you use certain stereo effect blocks, or flip between real and modelled pre-amps. Orange/Red channel patches may need a few dB less again to balance output volumes across all channels.

The setup above uses amp level (-10dBV) configured at the amplifier with Line Level at the HD output. This compensates for the quietness of the HD pre-amps compared to some 'real' pre-amps. The settings compensate but pulling down the levels from the 'real' pre-amp (using the Mixer in the last step) and this is one area where you are most likely to need to need to fiddle with your JCM.

Keep your master on the JCM low while you are playing - assuming that the master control on your JCM is installed after it's effects loop. If the master is installed before the JVM effects loop then you may need to turn the amp master way up and the HD master right down to compensate. Sorry, you will have to figure this one out yourself.

One of the great things with 4CM is that you can use either the JCM or HD pre-amps without changing the wiring.

The config for the JCM pre-amp is that described above in this post.
The config for the HD amp is simple - turn on the HD amp and remove the pre-amp block.

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:25:07 GMT

Alright, I'll try and wire it out again. Is it best to place the FX Loop block after the pre-amp or before?

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:28:02 GMT

I have a link here that explains 4CM so it may be worth checking that your connections are right

http://jvmforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5332

You also need to ensure that the FX loop on your amp is actually working and turned on. The easiest way to do this is to just put some other pedal in the effects loop of your amp and see if you can hear it.

Come back if this does not help.

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:23:49 GMT

Sorry Fanir, there is no auto-save function available. Double tapping save becomes second nature after a bit. Its like with a word processor or something - a habit that you are well advised to aquire.

Just make sure any assigned footswitch effect toggles are where you want them before you save !!

if you want to suggest and auto save feature to Line 6, you can raise a feature request. If enough people put the same request in then they may choose to implement it in future firmware

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:09:13 GMT

Oh yeah, is there a way that the HD 500 would save the settings once I've adjusted them automatically instead of always double tapping the save button? Let's say I have Patch A and B. During band practice, I wasn't happy with the settings thus adjusted the EQ and during the song, I had to change to Patch B. So when I reverted to Patch A afterwards, the changes I did weren't saved which is a bit of an inconvenience.

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:07:04 GMT

Hello again, I think I'm missing something here because the 4CM and loop method isn't really working for me. I mean, I'm just using the HD 500's pre-amp as recommended above and wired it according to what you've said here but when I switch on the FX Loop, there's nothing coming out. It works fine without the FX Loop though. Tweak the Sends/Returns on the FX Loop but nothing really comes up.

Also, it would only make sense if I leave the EQ settings on my JCM all flat and tweak from the HD. Is that the right way to go for bypassing my amp's cab and using the HD's modeller?

One last thing, when I used the Stack/Stack Power Amp output mode, there's lack of lows/bass in my tone, is that perfectly normal?

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:17:14 GMT

Dont worry about asking questions. That's what the forum is for Everyone has to start somewhere with this stuff

Nick

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:08:04 GMT

Thanks so much for this. I've been going to and fro this thread to my HD500 to try things out. From what I hear, it's pretty badass. Thanks for the tip of using the pre-amp models instead of the full models. It sounds way better. One more question though, when I use the pre-amps, can I still use the 4CM method and switch between my JCM and the pre-amps?

I really apologize for the numerous questions, it's an awesome unit and I really wanna get my head around it.

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:40:40 GMT

nickmattocks wrote:

Make sure that the HD500 AMP/LINE switch is set to LINE when going in via 4CM or when going direct into the power amp stage and bypassing the real amp's pre-amp section.

Just be aware, if your FX loop is set to amp/stomp level (-10dBV) instead of line level (+4dBu) then setting the HD 1/4" amp/line output to 'line will give the JCM Power amp a very 'hot' input - about 4 times the voltage it would expect at stomp level. I am not sure what the JCM800 expects so you should check.

This ain't necessarily a bad thing and is actually very useful if you are trying to match the HD's (sometimes wimpy) pre-amp model levels with those from your real amp in 4CM. However, there will also be a big boost to the real pre-amp levels if you are running 4CM and you will need to cut down the volume on down your 'real' preamp patches to their original levels using the mixer. If you don't then you may be pushing the power amp too hard. This will cause early distortion and may not be terribly good for the amp. Suggest you set the mixer as the final effect and turn it down there.

If you are using 4CM, you can compare levels simply by turning the Amp Effects loop on and off .... if it can be switched on the JCM - sorry, a bit ignorant of the facilities. If you don'have a switchable loop: create two patches, one for line level (no change to the levels) and one for amp level (mixer way down). You can then change the amp/line switch and the patch together to compare the two.

Sorry if this is bewildering! Once you get into 4CM nothing is the same again

Re: Switching patches?

support@line6.com — Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:27:56 GMT

In a real amp situation with real stomp boxes, most people tend to put things like Wah, Overdrive/Distortion FX bnetween the guitar and amp front input and the 'clean' FX like chorus, delay, reverb in the amp's FX loop. That's just a popular way of doing it I guess and the reason will be that doing it like that allows the FX to operate to their optimum. However, you can of course do whatever you like, and breaking the 'rules' (there are no rules BTW) is what's basically led to new sounds being developed over the years

In the HD500, it's more about placing the FX before the amp and cab models or after the amp and cab models rather than before or after the mixer. Placing FX like delay or modulation (chorus/flanger etc...) after the amp modelling will result in those FX being more effective/have more headroom (try it and see for yourself and you'll hear what I mean ). Some FX are true stereo FX and others are mono FX. Some will preserve a stereo signal, whereas some will just sum both incoming (stereo) channels to mono. There is a table which a user called fester2000 put together over in the Pod HD user group under Documents (the Pod HD user group is a user run forum but it is a different forum to this one which confusingly is called POD HD and is a support forum ). If you put a mono effect anywhere at the end of the signal chain in the HD500 it will sum the output to mono.

The output options on the HD500 are basically different EQ options pre-voiced to make the HD500 sound as good as possible depending on which type of amp or input you're plugging into.

Studio/Direct is considered to be best for plugging the HD500 into a PA or into a Full Frequency, Flat Response system like a powered full range speaker cab, or to a recording console.
Stack Front is considered best if you're plugging the output of the HD500 into a head + cab like your JCM
Stack Pwr Amp is considered best when plugging into a stack power amp section bypassing the amp's pre-amp
Combo Front is considered best when plugging into the front input of a combo amp
Combo Pwr Amp is considered best when plugging into the power amp section of a combo amp

It's about getting the best match of tone with a number of amplification and cabinet options.

Again - there are no rules. If you find that Combo Pwr Amp sounds better through your stack, then use it

On the last point, basically you can use the HD500 as the pre-amp and you can avoid your amp's pre-amp entirely. TBH that's exactly what I do 99.99% of the time. I have a number of amps with three of them being Marshall, as well as a DT-50 and a couple of Spider Valve combos. If I use the HD500 or POD HD Pro with any of them I invariably go from the POD 1/4" output into the amp's FX Return or Power Amp In socket. (except the DT-50 where I use L6-Link mode). I know it seems like a bit of a waste perhaps to have a perfectly good real valve pre-amp such as in the Marshall JVM 205H or TSL100 that I own being bypassed in favour of the HD500 running a PRE amp model, but in all seriousness if I want a Marshall sound through any of my amps, the PRE modelling gets me into the right ball park every time plus I can switch to any one of the other PRE amp models and get pretty close at worst, and pretty much spot on for the rest to any other amp model.

A lot of what you do and how you decide to do it is subjective. Most of what I've written above is either my own opinion or it's based on how a lot of people tend to do things. Some people do things differently and will have different opinions. Remember above all there are NO rules!

Nick