Community: Message List - L3t and HD500 together

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:53:10 GMT

Plug lead vocal mic into L3T in monitor mode on it's side on stage for vocalist to adjust their volume and EQ preferences on their mic only.
Then out via L6 Link with a flat and constant signal coming from the L3T to the mixer (kinda like setting a bass amp to pre-EQ XLR out)
And also have the ability via L6 Link to send back a monitor mix that still allows the lead vox to make adjustments without changing the signal to the mixer @ FOH? Similar to in-ear monitor systems where each person can have their own level control in relation to the mixed monitor signal?

No .. it won't work in that fashion. That requires a much more complex system with seperate buses/sends. Even most dedicated monitor mixers are not capable of this.

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:39:38 GMT

dboomer wrote:

I'm not trying to compare a very expensive rack unit to a powered speaker, but just curious how Line 6 designed this feedback suppression system in the speakers as well as the mixer

You should as the Line 6 system is more advanced and better able to determine actual feedback from other signals

The Line 6 system is dynamic. It sets filters when it determines that feedback actually occurs at any given frequency and removes them if/when the feedback at that frequency is no longer an issue. There are 12 filters in the Line 6 system. Most feedback systems look only at the loudest frequency in the band to try and determine if it is feedback. The Line 6 system can look at the entire band simultaneously as the loudest signal may not be feedback but rather intentional signal.

The system in both the speakers and the mixer are the same. It should work out better in almost all cases to engage the filters at the mixer where they operate on the inputs rather than dropping them on the entire output (but it's a small difference).

Thanks for the answers to my questions. It might be worth the time for L6 to produce these facts in written as well as video promotional material.

Something I'm not clear on... if I have 2 L3T's and I hook them together via L6 link, do I still have both speakers available for inputs?

Yes. Just run 2 AES cables from and to both speakers

And you answered another question I had thought of back during NAMM - if the mixers of each speaker can be combined. If I've understood your answer correctly...would it make better/worse, or no difference to plug mics or any other inputs that you would typically want in a monitor mix and use the L3T speakers "as something like a in-ear monitor mix" for independent control by the performers on stage in addition or combination with a typical stage monitor mix?

In case my question is confusing...

Plug lead vocal mic into L3T in monitor mode on it's side on stage for vocalist to adjust their volume and EQ preferences on their mic only.
Then out via L6 Link with a flat and constant signal coming from the L3T to the mixer (kinda like setting a bass amp to pre-EQ XLR out)
And also have the ability via L6 Link to send back a monitor mix that still allows the lead vox to make adjustments without changing the signal to the mixer @ FOH? Similar to in-ear monitor systems where each person can have their own level control in relation to the mixed monitor signal?

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:25:57 GMT

Something I'm not clear on... if I have 2 L3T's and I hook them together via L6 link, do I still have both speakers available for inputs?

Yes. Just run 2 AES cables from and to both speakers

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:00:29 GMT

Thanks Dboomer for your info. When I say "Bose Effect" I only meant that as in their push to have each artist place their own speaker near them on stage and use that sound for themselves and the audience. I wasn't meaning they have some kind of magic

Whenever I've setup my traditional PA behind us on stage I've been very lucky. We don't have any feedback correction. Typically the only negative feedback we've had was from my acoustic which was easily dealt with on the guitar.

Last night I hosted a songwriter's event in my city. I had the PA setup for people to share songs and so others could jam along. I set the main vocals and one guy's acoustic guitar into the L3T on the other side of the room. It was pretty cool as the mic moved all over the room and with the feedback suppression on there were 0 feedback issues heard. I left it off for the acoustic guitar and we had some until I turned it on and after that none. It sounded quite good even though the room is terrible for acoustics (Lots of glass, laminate flooring, cement).

Something I'm not clear on... if I have 2 L3T's and I hook them together via L6 link, do I still have both speakers available for inputs?

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:23:44 GMT

I'm not trying to compare a very expensive rack unit to a powered speaker, but just curious how Line 6 designed this feedback suppression system in the speakers as well as the mixer

You should as the Line 6 system is more advanced and better able to determine actual feedback from other signals

The Line 6 system is dynamic. It sets filters when it determines that feedback actually occurs at any given frequency and removes them if/when the feedback at that frequency is no longer an issue. There are 12 filters in the Line 6 system. Most feedback systems look only at the loudest frequency in the band to try and determine if it is feedback. The Line 6 system can look at the entire band simultaneously as the loudest signal may not be feedback but rather intentional signal.

The system in both the speakers and the mixer are the same. It should work out better in almost all cases to engage the filters at the mixer where they operate on the inputs rather than dropping them on the entire output (but it's a small difference).

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 03:24:36 GMT

Since you brought this up, I once again am curious as there is nothing written or in any demo that answers this direct question qith a direct answer.

With the units built in feedback suppression notch filters, do they...

Have a limit to the notch filters available before maxing out? - if the expected answer is yes, then how many filters per speaker or per channel if independent?
What is the bandwidth of each notch filter? You did mention the reduction range from -6db to -12db, but I'm interested in the bandwidth of each notch filter as well as the db level decrease.
If you are familiar with the dbx DriveRack+ All in one FOH speaker controlling unit. That unit has 10 notch filters per channel and covers up to six channels depending on how you set the unit up. The feature I am asking in comparison to the filter function within the SoundScape speaker as well as the M20d mixer is the following...

The Driverack+ unit rotates the notch filters if they all get used up by dropping the least offensive feedback ( or no longer existing feedback )and correcting automatically to the next more offensive feedback point. The unit does this automatically if set to this function. At extreme high volume levels it is quite amazing how it can manage nearly all feedback once the unit is set up properly as well as the FOH speakers and amps. This unit I have in my personal rack as it can also recall any settings from room to room and band to band. I have also used it on all of my new PA rental systems and installation jobs.

I'm not trying to compare a very expensive rack unit to a powered speaker, but just curious how Line 6 designed this feedback suppression system in the speakers as well as the mixer. And does the mixers feedback suppression via L6 Link add to or just supercede the speakers feedback suppression? I'm sorry if all these questions are cumbersome and if you would prefer to take this private, please PM me. I wanted to try out all this gear as a beta tester, but all tester slots were filled by the time I asked which was the day of it's debut announcement @ NAMM.

Thanks,

Neal

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:30:27 GMT

There is no "Bose effect". There is nothing different in those products that any speaker cannot do, case by case.

Feedback ALWAYS happens when the signal that is amplified goes back into any system at a level equal to the level it went in originally. That is called "unity gain" and every speaker will go into feedback once this happens. As long as you are below this level you don't have feedback, again with every speaker.

Now since the frequency response on microphones and of speakers is not perfectly flat you end up with some peaks that will cross that line first (in other words, they achieve unity gain first). When that single frequency crosses the line feedback always begins as a single frequency sine wave. The feedback manager in the speakers (and in the M20d mixer) are focused to look only for these non-harmonic waves that are rising in intensity. When it finds one it drops a very narrow filter on that frequency with extreme accuracy and turns that specific frequency down (and almost nothing else). Now that this frequency is taken care of you can turn the system up more until you hit the next one, and so on. The more you fix the quicker they come so there will become a point where you are getting dozens at the same time and at that point you are sunk.

It is a very complex thing to predict because if you move the mic an inch or two the feedback frequencies change. Of course the Line 6 feedback manager changes with them. Please understand there is a fixed limit in every situation but generally you could expect a 6 - 12 dB improvement in what I would consider "normal" operation. It is also very much affected by ceiling height. The lower the ceiling the quicker you'll run into feedback and outdoors you'll get the max benefit.

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:29:50 GMT

With feedback managers becoming much more accurate and much less noticeable do you think the L3T will let us achieve the Bose effect without the Bose price? It'd be great for acoustic guitar-based shows but I would imagine this could work for electric guitar based performances as well - it might require a bit more effort to get a good volume that works for everyone...

For example:

Myself - lead vocals and mix of rythm and lead guitar - Line 6 L3T behind me.
Chris - backing vocals and mix of rythm and lead guitar - Line 6 L3T behind him.

Bass - std. Bass amp & speaker cabinet.
Drums - this is where it gets more complicated I think. I haven't tried this type of setup but perhaps in a small small venue just an acoustic performance and an L3T or keyboard amp with the outputs of myself and Chris into his for monitors. Drummers usually want to mic at least HH/Snare and Kick - not sure what would be a good solution for that.

Maybe this is just a dream...

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:56:56 GMT

There's nothing that says you can't put speakers behind you. There is just a limit before you get feedback and Bose has to operate under the same rules of physics that everyone does. You can stretch the perception of the rule with the onboard feedback manager because it will tame the first instances of feedback ... but there is a limit that you will run out of sometime.

I will agree with you, and it is often overlooked, but speaker placement should enhance an acoustic performance. To my way of thinking the sound system should seem to disappear. I mean you came to watch the musicians and not listen to the sound system ... right?

Well except geeks like me who come to listen to the sound system

Re: L3t and HD500 together

support@line6.com — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:46:16 GMT

dboomer wrote:

Any idea when we might start seeing the M20d mixer available?

Well I'm sworn to secrecy. But if you were holding your breath it's getting to the point where you might not turn too blue.

Fair enough - thanks.