Community: Message List - Some more questions about clipping

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:37:07 GMT

I noticed that the OP mentioned that the 2nd input was set to same....... I have found this to cause undesired crossover like distortion is certain amps. Try setting the 2nd input to mic, or variax and see if that helps.

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Mon, 17 Dec 2012 11:15:44 GMT

I have AKG K141 (600 ohms), very good studio cans..

this model is discontinued, but maybe you can still find it second-hand or new somewhere..

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:07:02 GMT

what brand/model would people suggest that are in the 150-600 range?

i checked the prices for sennheiser headphones in this ohm range and i think the cheapest ones were about $400

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 11:06:46 GMT

Talenless ha scritto:

1) are some amps (either actual, or modeled) not equipped to handle higher output pickups?

2) is it possible to have a clean tone on a blank patch (ie: "new tone" patch), and have clipping on an amp model?

3) i noticed that i had to turn down the guitar's volume knob even further to clean up the AC-15 amp model

4) so a pickup that's too hot will cause a different type of clipping than an overdrive pedal creates? because isn't that the purpose of an OD pedal? to bring a bigger signal to the front of an amp?

1) some amps are best suited for single coil equiped guitars (ie guitars that have about half of the output level of a guitar with humbuckers), therefore with hot humbuckers those amps go in the distort (or clipping) territory much earlier in the drive control range..

2) yes, if for clipping we mean natural distortion (not digital, aliasing etc.), as stated in the above answer, some amps distort very easily and too much with some pick-ups..

3) the AC-15 model is one of the those amps I was speaking about in answer n.1, similar to the Supro S6616 and Gibson EH-185..

4) a OD FX boosts the signal but it adds also its own colour and distortion, in the case of the HD the OD modeled FX works internally (let say as in a safe land) as a digital algorithm, but if the same OD was instead a real one placed between your guitar and the pod, much probably it would cause some nasty digital clippings at the pod inputs A/D converters..

generally speaking, if you want to boost the input signal at your pod, you'll get much better results if you boost it internally rather than externally..

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:44:55 GMT

Some of these amp models seem to me to distort quite easily, but as someone very familiar over many years with real Vox/Hiwatt/Marshall etc I can tell you that your impression of this distortion level will change with different situations - next to a drum kit at high level. What makes these original amps so attractive is the dynamic nature of their performance, and if you set a VoxAC30 at about 11 o'clock on the vol and play quietly it will sound clean and start to warm up as you put in more energy. I am amazed, personally at how accurate the Vox & Hiwatt models are. Clipping is horrible, overdrive is friendly sounding. In my not-at-all-humble opinion, if you have a hot pickups, you're asking for trouble. Les 'n ' Leo got it right.

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 03:10:24 GMT

maybe you have very hot pick-ups,

i think that this might be the case

they are the Duncan JB/59n pair, and i just tried turning down the guitar's volume knob and it cleaned up that crackling, fizzling sound.

are some amps (either actual, or modeled) not equipped to handle higher output pickups?

is it possible to have a clean tone on a blank patch (ie: "new tone" patch), and have clipping on an amp model?

i noticed that i had to turn down the guitar's volume knob even further to clean up the AC-15 amp model

so a pickup that's too hot will cause a different type of clipping than an overdrive pedal creates? because isn't that the purpose of an OD pedal? to bring a bigger signal to the front of an amp?

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:51:11 GMT

I only use a JTV-69, HD preamp models and a DT25 as amp, i.e., I am not sure how much of that experience applies to full amp models and a wide range of real guitar input signal levels. Hope it will help understand what might be going on anyway.

The following describes what I do to get the 'purest' effect and preamp model tones over any range of possible preamp parameter settings. I say pure to differentiate HD digital signal headroom compression/distortion induced tone effects from the selected preamp parameter settings to get preamp specific overdriven tone that you will get from high channel Volume, Drive and other tone stack settings. As far as I can tell (and interpret my measurements) there is an HD or possibly effect/preamp specific soft limit on the modelled output signal level that, when exceeded, will induce additional and increasing compression or soft clipping. At present I do not think that this is a characteristic of the modelled preamp but simply to provide a 'natural' sounding analog-ish mechanism to gradually reduce the output and prevent or at least delay digital clipping within the HD. From everything I checked so far this limit apears to be -12dB, i.e., if your output signal (after any modelled effect or amplifier component with the possible exception of the Mixer) exceeds -12dB you probably are experiencing some amount of compression or soft clipping in your tone that is not due to the quipment model. In addition (I am guessing because there are many more effects than the few I checked), if an HD internal signal level higher than -12dB is fed into an effect or amplifier the respective model will similarly compress or soft clip the output (reducing gain or volume may elliminate that effect, but I have not checked of that). Note, I am not saying this is generally bad if you like or utilize this compression effect.

On the other hand if you just want the modelled clean or overdriven effect of the selected effects or amplifiers I think you would want to choose settings that will keep the models in an operating range that does not induce this additional compression. At present I think you need to keep all inputs below -12dB and choose no effect gain or amplifier drive/volume/tone setting that results in an output signal above -12dB within the HD to acieve this. You may be able to put the Mixer at the very end and push the final output higher to a signal level closer to 0dBFS, the digital clipping point. I have not checked the signal for signs of distortion doing that.

Example:

If I use my JTV-69 on input 1 (input 2 guitar, i.e., None) and select a Strat neck position as guitar model I get -16.4dB as maximum input signal to my preamp with no effects. I can measure this by disabling the amp and setting the Mixer to 0dB gain and channel A/B hard left and right or channel A center and channle B muted via USB and a DAW. If I select the BF Double Vibrato preamp with Drive @ 100%, Volume @ 100%,all other tone controls @50% with Cab simulation off I get a max output signal above the -12dB limit I described above. If you play around with volume and drive settings you will find the full volume range will change the output signal level by about 60dB between a 0% and a 100% setting as long as you stay below the -12dB output. If you go above by dialing in a higher guitar input level or by setting a higher drive you will find the effect of the volume adjustment will get lowered as you go more and more abobve the -12dB output level. With my guitar example I have to place a Studio EQ in front of the preamp and dial in almost -18dB gain to make the BF Vib preamp not artificially compress at maximum volume and drive settings. You can check this by verifying that volume changes will get the full 60dB change on any preamp drive setting.

Obviously the behavior of extreme use modes will only matter if you want to operate in extreme settings. As long as you stay below the -12dB output rule you should not run into this extra compression or soft clipping effect, but unless you actually measure signal levels it is hard to tell whether you get your compression (or even some distortion) from a selected effect, your amp setting, or just this HD built-in headroom compression or soft clipping effect.

Because I just discovered these effects a few weeks ago and I am still making more measurements as well as think about the results the above is really just my current (but not necessarily correct) explanation for what's going on. Your milage may vary ;-) ... and it may not apply to the problems you have, but it kind of sounds like you may be running into what I described.

Good luck,

Martin

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:02:24 GMT

maybe you have very hot pick-ups, or they are too close to the strings in which case you might try to lower them just a little (it really makes a difference)..

you can also try to set the GUITAR IN switch (near the pedal) to: PAD.. it's there just for this reason

last resort is to set input 2 to another unused instrument, it will halve your input level, similar to the GUITAR IN switch, but with some drawbacks..

also don't forget that especially the first HD amp models (low to mid gain) are the ones so to speak of old school era, ie when the amps were adjusted for a nice lead tone and the clean and crunch were obtained just lowering the guitar volume control..

one of the main improved characteristics of the HD series over the X3/XT is the interaction between the guitar volume and the amps dynamic response, try to believe!

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:31:04 GMT

phil_m is absolutely right ..

I did not notice that you are using low impedance headphones ..

also try to connect your pod to a keyboard amplifier or PA and see if there are differences

Re: Some more questions about clipping

support@line6.com — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:33:10 GMT

Don't overlook the fact that it is possible that the HD500 can cause clipping in the headphones. Line 6 recommends headphones that have an impedance of 150 - 600 ohms. Those Sennheisers are rated at 64 ohms. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that's the reason you're not hearing things as clean as you think you should.