Community: Message List - Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Sun, 06 Jan 2013 23:19:35 GMT

lukegeis ha scritto:

..... I wanted a super cool, highly portable rig of rigs.......

probably a DT25 or a DT50 amp L6-linked with your HD500 could be the perfect answer to your needs..

many DT amp owners are super happy of their rig..

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Sun, 06 Jan 2013 22:38:40 GMT

No this is my analog amp setup. I run a Rack FX unit in the FX loop of the Egnater head. I do the same with my Peavey Triple XXX. My POD rig is currently a 500HD into a Rocktron velocity 100 amp. The amp feeds an oversized 2x12 Hughes and Kettner cab ( killer cab ). I use predominately all preamp models in the POD and just a couple of FX. I am looking into using it to replace my heavy analog rigs. I just haven't made the jump yet. I started at first trying to go with an FRFR set up and wasn't happy and then went to the more conventional method. I like the way the POD works going into an amp and cab. It sounds really good and is very convincing. The hardest part is scaling it down so it's not as much as a P.I.T.A to cart around as a normal guitar rig. I kinda wish I went with a HD PRO. that way I can have the amp and POD in one rack. But then I have to have a midi controller, so it stinks either way.......... I wanted a super cool, highly portable rig of rigs. I have the capability minus the portability still. I have a couple 1x12 cabs which kill with my Egnater head, but they don't sound so good with the POD. I'm never gonna be happy......

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:37:36 GMT

I see... so, for what are you using your POD?.. only for effects?

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:11:38 GMT

I too don't mind thet way the volume darkens the tone. On some amps it's a bit too much and some FX will also really effect the way it works. My favorite combo right now for my analog setup is a ZVEX S.H.O ( its a copy I made of the pedal ) that is in front of an Egnater Tweaker 15 head. I run the head in it's low gain setting and use the clean boost ( ZVEX copy ) to boost the amp into a really hard overdrive. The pedal has a very high impedance and when I roll the guitar volume down for a more crunchy tone, it still holds some sparkle. The pedal itself has a little of it's own high end addition and helps keep the signal that much cleaner. I can almost litterally roll the volume all the way down to acquire a clean-ish sound and still have the guitar sound very much like it has the volume all the way up. This is not possible without the pedal.

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Sun, 30 Dec 2012 04:50:54 GMT

jimsreynolds wrote:

I think the input options are going to remain controversial. If you read through that thread there are many people who feel that the i2=variax option has made a real, positive difference to their tone, despite the input level cut and the headaches that it can cause with routing. Too many and too specific for it to be simple herd mentality. The are also some power users, e.g. Meambobbo, who discern some unwelcome filtering effects when the signals are mixed when i2=same. I think that pickup output strength is part of the considerations also... Most of mine are pokey and I favour i2=variax.

Others are perfectly happy with i2 = same and will stick with that.

Unfortunately I am one of those that just muddies the waters as I have transitioned from "Same" to different e.g. input 2 = variax, and back to "same". (The latter as a result of comments on this very thread).

It makes some sense though, that if you have a hotter output from your guitar the "same" option may be less ideal.... but then again, when using the real world equivilent stomps and amps this 'option' doesnt exist per se. Hmmm. I remain inclined to believe that "same" is the intended correct setting. That isnt to say that it works best for everyone, but I do think that it was intended to.

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:44:48 GMT

good explanation ..
maybe I'll experiment with different lengths of cables ..
I must say that in my case I find it natural and pleasant the slight change of tone to the decrease of volume pot level..
it is what I expect, and somehow I consider the volume pot almost as a slight tone pot, and also the true tone pot almost like a slight volume pot..
if then, the amp drive/gain surpasses that saturation threshold beyond which there are no more changes in output volume, but there are only variations of distortion and compression, in that situation and within a certain limit the volume pot becomes in effect only a timbre variator ..
many guitarists including me make extensive use of this expressive technique, which finally can be used much better with the HD series improved dynamics, compared to the previous modelers..

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Sat, 29 Dec 2012 02:20:22 GMT

I will have to experiment some more with this pre split thing and levels from input 1 and 2.......

The tone change that occurs when you roll the volume down does always exist regardless of the impedance, but it is how much that it changes? Because the volume knob is part of the circuitry, it is another part of the equation and some highs will always be shunted to ground. Even if the impedance at the amp, or effect is significant there will always be some amount of high frequency loss. If this is a bothersome thing for you, the effect can be diminished greatly by using what is called a treble bleed on the volume knob. This is essentially a cap and resistor in parallel that allows the highs to bleed past the volume pot. This means that the highs will not roll off as much when you turn the volume down. It has it's caveats though! It can keep the volume knob from cutting the volume all the way off and it can also allow too much highs past ( if you set up the treble bleed that way ) when the volume is rolled down. One of the better ways to eliminate the issue is to use shorter lengths of cable between the guitar and effects, or amp, or to use a buffer pedal / volume booster to change the impedance seen at the guitar. Most buffer / volume booster pedals have a high 1 meg input impedance making the RC circuit retain the high end. This coupled with the way the pedal works ( when engaged ) can reduce very much the high end roll off ( tone suck ) effect.

Some wireless guitar systems are even starting to incorporate circuitry that emulates cable lengths. This is because some users complain that the volume on their guitar doesn't work the same as it does when plugged straight into an amp. What the circuitry does is emulate cable lengths that are between 0-20 feet. This makes it so that when you roll the volume down it darkens the tone up a little. Cable length is the largest contributor to the issue. capacitance exists in the cable and the longer it is the more it naturally sucks tone. This is one of the largest gimmicks that most cable retailers are trying to cash in on. It preserves your tone is the largest one.......They say they use high grade, oxygen free, or exotic materials to keep your tone, but physics don't give a ****........ Capacitance is the only thing that makes it what it really is. Creating a lower capacitance cable is the only way to defeat the phenomenon. Shorter length cables are the easiest way to get around it. Try it sometime. Couple a few 20' cables to gether and listen to the tone, and then run a short 6' between the guitar and amp. My bet is that the difference will be night and day.

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:34:29 GMT

lukegeis ha scritto:

This pre split thing that you two speak of eludes me at the moment? As far as I know when you have input 2 as same it feeds the A & B path the same signal and they sum together at any mono effect, or amp ( that is in the direct path and not split into two paths ), resulting in a higher input signal to that block. When you set the input 2 as Variax, or mic, you get essentialy signal only going to path A when a stereo effect is in place, or only the path A signal going into the path A amp block. Path A is the standard signal path for input one. The path B amp would be nulled from the guitar signal if input two was set to mic for instance. I can see what you mean if you split the amp paths to have an A & B path, that each amp would only see one side of the signal and not have a summed amount of the input in each one. But that is exactly the same as setting input two as something other than " same ". I can see the allure of that if you do a lot of dual amp setups on the POD. Is that what your talking of? If the later is true then reasonable deduction would say that only one input signal at a time would be the true amp, or effect responce to that input signal. I do agree that the amps with amp 2 as same seem to have a bit more gain and have a cool factor to them, I just don't find it realistic to me.

Unfortunately on this subject both the unclear manual and some threads on this forum have contributed to create a lot of confusion in many people ..

if you really tried to make a comparison between the sound of an amp when it is in path A and when it is instead in pre-split, in the end you would give me right ..

there is little to do, the evidence is too strong to be able to deny it..

starting from an empty patch, activating an amp in path A it receives the signal that comes from input 1 and produces a certain volume level and distortion ..

the same amp put instead in pre-split results to have the same level of volume and distortion only if the two inputs are equal ..

therefore it is more than obvious to me that when, and only when you turn on an amp (or mono fx) in pre-split, the real signal at the POD input is halved, so to get the whole signal in pre-split it requires 2 halves, here's what is the purpose of the setting "same", and that's why there is no setting "null"

As for the " tone suck " impedance thing. I know for a fact that the tone suck is related to impedance. Impedance works just as you would imagine in a guitar. Guitars volume knobs usually have either a 500K pot ( for humbuckers ), or a 250K pot ( for single coils ). This volume knob pot value is the potential above ground for that circuit and it acts as an RC circuit when connected to an amp. An RC circuit is basically a simple tone circuit which acts as a low pass, or high cut circuit. The guitar and cable which connects to the amp are the first part of that circuit and the potential above ground at the amp, or effect input is what determines how much high end will be eliminated when you roll the guitar volume down. The higher the ground potential ( or impedance ) at the amp, or effect box, the less highs are rolled off. The lower the impedance, or ground potential, the more the highs get rolled off. This is why guitars have different pots for the different pickup types. The single coils have less inductance and resistance and the lower 250K pot value keeps them from being too bright and brittle. The humbuckers have twice as much inductance and resistance ( for sake of argument, but not quite twice as much ) and to keep them from being too dark, they have a 500K pot. The higher ground potential helps keep them brighter. The typical amp is around 1meg and as high as 3 megs of input impedance. The higher the impedance the brighter the amp usually. This is why if you play with the TRUE Z settings of the POD it will get brighter as you increase the impedance and darker as you lower it. When set to auto, it will set the input impedance to be that of the actual effect that is first in your chain in order to mimic the way the guitar would actually react to that effect, or amp.

your really good explanation of the interaction between the circuitry of the guitar, the cable and the effects and amps, very well describes a behavior related to the interfacing between the various components, but I remain convinced that the tone of the signal, measured directly at 'output of an electric guitar changes always in the same way to changing its volume, due to its internal circuitry.. then, how it interacts with the rest of the equipment, although very interesting, is another story..

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Fri, 28 Dec 2012 05:40:36 GMT

This pre split thing that you two speak of eludes me at the moment? As far as I know when you have input 2 as same it feeds the A & B path the same signal and they sum together at any mono effect, or amp ( that is in the direct path and not split into two paths ), resulting in a higher input signal to that block. When you set the input 2 as Variax, or mic, you get essentialy signal only going to path A when a stereo effect is in place, or only the path A signal going into the path A amp block. Path A is the standard signal path for input one. The path B amp would be nulled from the guitar signal if input two was set to mic for instance. I can see what you mean if you split the amp paths to have an A & B path, that each amp would only see one side of the signal and not have a summed amount of the input in each one. But that is exactly the same as setting input two as something other than " same ". I can see the allure of that if you do a lot of dual amp setups on the POD. Is that what your talking of? If the later is true then reasonable deduction would say that only one input signal at a time would be the true amp, or effect responce to that input signal. I do agree that the amps with amp 2 as same seem to have a bit more gain and have a cool factor to them, I just don't find it realistic to me.

As for the " tone suck " impedance thing. I know for a fact that the tone suck is related to impedance. Impedance works just as you would imagine in a guitar. Guitars volume knobs usually have either a 500K pot ( for humbuckers ), or a 250K pot ( for single coils ). This volume knob pot value is the potential above ground for that circuit and it acts as an RC circuit when connected to an amp. An RC circuit is basically a simple tone circuit which acts as a low pass, or high cut circuit. The guitar and cable which connects to the amp are the first part of that circuit and the potential above ground at the amp, or effect input is what determines how much high end will be eliminated when you roll the guitar volume down. The higher the ground potential ( or impedance ) at the amp, or effect box, the less highs are rolled off. The lower the impedance, or ground potential, the more the highs get rolled off. This is why guitars have different pots for the different pickup types. The single coils have less inductance and resistance and the lower 250K pot value keeps them from being too bright and brittle. The humbuckers have twice as much inductance and resistance ( for sake of argument, but not quite twice as much ) and to keep them from being too dark, they have a 500K pot. The higher ground potential helps keep them brighter. The typical amp is around 1meg and as high as 3 megs of input impedance. The higher the impedance the brighter the amp usually. This is why if you play with the TRUE Z settings of the POD it will get brighter as you increase the impedance and darker as you lower it. When set to auto, it will set the input impedance to be that of the actual effect that is first in your chain in order to mimic the way the guitar would actually react to that effect, or amp.

Re: Just a little question out of curiosity re: Od's and Distortions.

support@line6.com — Thu, 27 Dec 2012 14:09:50 GMT

lukegeis ha scritto:

...The tone change thing when you roll the volume is normal and expected. It happens on any amp and most effects. This is the reason that hey put the TRUE Z feature in the POD HD. This is to mimic the reaction your pickup would have were it to be plugged into that particular amp or effect...

I don't believe the POD emulated amp/fx input impedance has to do with the tone change when you roll the volume on the guitar.. but instead the tone change is inherent to the guitar circuitry.. therefore the same tone change would still be there from the guitar output for any possible connection, real o modeled..

...As for which setting for the input is best ( regardless of which input option you desire ) I couldn't honestly say. My feeling is that the input 2 as same, is incorrect for the true amp modeling effect. This is of course my opinion. Having owned many an amp and being able to have played through many more, I see the gain level achieved with input 2 as same, to be a little bit too much...

I also played with several true amps, and it seems to me that when the amp is in pre-split position the reaction of the drive control is much closer to reality when the input 2 is set to "same" .. which is in fact the same exact reaction that is obtained by the same amp alone in path A, for which in this case the input 2 setting has no influence..