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1355 Views 4 Replies Latest reply: Mar 16, 2010 6:15 AM by ajwebber RSS
ajwebber Just Startin'
ajwebber
10 posts since
Oct 30, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Mar 15, 2010 11:11 AM

Advice needed on Pod X3 Pro effects routing possibilities

Hi all,

 

Forgive me if I've missed an existing posting on this subject, but here's the skinny...

 

I want to be able to use my Variax 700 with a recently purchased valve amp (Blackstar S1-45). I'd like to be able to control the guitar via a footpedal, as I play in a covers band and need to be able to store then access different models and tunings 'on the fly'. I'm thinking about purchasing an X3 Pro, switching off the amp/cab emulation and using this in conjunction with an FBV controller that I already have for my Vetta II

 

Should work fine, you're probably thinking, why waste time asking about this on our discussion board?!!!

 

The nub of my question however relates to the possibilities for effects routing within the signal chain of the X3 Pro itself...

 

It's common practice to route overdrive/distortion effects in the signal chain between the guitar and an amp's GUITAR input, and to seperately route modulation effects etc via the amp's effects SEND and RETURN loop (i.e. post pre-amp). It just sounds better that way in most instances and, in fact, Line 6's own M13 stompbox modeller caters for this out of the box, but it has no inputs/control for a Variax (BIG oversight fellas!)

 

So back to Plan A, and my question...

 

Does anyone know if/how I can split routing of effects within the X3 Pro so that I can seperately feed overdrive/distortion effects to the 'live' outputs of the unit and modulation effects to the SEND/RETURN? From what I gleaned from the manuals on Line 6's website the effects loop on the X3 Pro can be used to add analogue pedals in series with the X3's effects chain at various points, but I couldn't figure out if the SEND and RETURN of this loop could be inserted "either side" of the built-in effects in the X3 Pro so that, in effect the pre-amp signal from the amp could be further processed by the X3 Pro befor returning to the power amp stage. As I often confuse myself with this stuff sometimes here's an example as to what I mean:

 

Example Signal Path:

 

Guitar => X3 Pro IN => X3 Pro Distortion effect => X3 Pro Live OUT => Amp IN => Amp SEND (Pre-Amp) => X3 Pro RETURN => X3 Pro Modulation Effect(s) => X3 Pro SEND => Amp RETURN (Power Amp)

 

Alternatively, does anyone know of a separate device that I could use to call up and display the stored presets of the Variax. I'm thinking I could switch it by connecting such a device to the MIDI input of the Variax and then present the guitar's (analogue) signal to an M13 via it's 1/4 in output jack. Would mean 2 leads into the guitar though, (can you even do this?)

 

I hope this all makes sense. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me!

 

best/AL

  • mimungr Gear Head
    mimungr
    649 posts since
    Mar 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 15, 2010 2:32 PM (in response to ajwebber)
    Re: Advice needed on Pod X3 Pro effects routing possibilities

    Yes, you can do that with the POD X3 Pro, but the signal path won't be exactly what you drew. It will look like this:

     

    Guitar => X3 Pro IN => X3 Pro Distortion effect => X3 Pro SEND => Amp IN => Amp SEND (Pre-Amp) => X3 Pro RETURN => X3 Pro Modulation Effect(s) => X3 Pro Live OUT => Amp RETURN (Power Amp)

     

    It's called the "four cable method" or 4CM.

    • ajwebber Just Startin'
      ajwebber
      10 posts since
      Oct 30, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 16, 2010 7:20 AM (in response to mimungr)
      Re: Advice needed on Pod X3 Pro effects routing possibilities

      Thanks mimungr, very useful advice... I learned something new today about splitting signal chains within multi-fx pedals. However I think I can see a big problem with this method... Sorry for the long posting but it's quite a complex one!

       

      As you may know it's important, in particular with valve amps, to match output/input voltages and impedances. As I understand them, the general rules of thumb for devices in a signal chain are that:

       

      Condition 1> The output voltage of a source within a signal chain should fall within the range of acceptable voltages for the input (pretty obvious really) and that

      Condition 2> For best signal quality and voltage transfer the impedance at the input to which the source is to be connected should be at least 7-10 times the value of the source's output impedance.

       

      OK so here's typical values for each physical input/output in the chain. I'm guessing at the X3 Pro values fall within the industry standards defined for instrument and line level outputs...

       

      Guitar Output (Pickup):

      Output Voltage = -17.7 dBu <> + 7 dBu; Impedance (Z) = 20 kOhms <> 40 kOhms

       

      Amp IN (Instrument Level):

      Input Voltage = -17.7 dBu <> + 7 dBu; Impedance (Z) = 1 MOhms

       

      X3 Pro / Amp SEND (Line Level Output):

      Output Voltage = -7.70 dBu (-10 dbV) or +4 dBu; Impedance (Z) = 10 kOhms

       

      X3 Pro / Amp RETURN (Line Level Input):

      Input Voltage = -7.70 dBu (-10 dbV) or +4 dBu; Impedance (Z) = 10 kOhms

       

      X3 Pro Live Output (Instrument Level):

      Output Voltage = -17.7 dBu <> + 7 dBu; Impedance (Z) = 20 kOhms <> 40 kOhms

       

      So, looking at the 4-cable method you've suggested 'step by step' against these two conditions...

       

      A. Guitar => X3 Pro IN:

      Conditions 1 & 2 met, OK

       

      B. X3 Pro IN => X3 Pro Distortion effect => X3 Pro SEND:

      Internally routed within X3 Pro; OK

       

      C. X3 Pro SEND => Amp IN:

      Condition 1 met; Condition 2 met; OK

       

      D. Amp IN => Amp SEND:

      Internally routed within Amp: OK

       

      E. Amp SEND => X3 Pro Return:

      Conditions 1 & 2 met, OK

       

      F. X3 Pro RETURN => X3 Pro Modulation Effect(s) => X3 Pro Live OUT:

      Internally routed within X3 Pro; OK

       

      G. X3 Pro Live OUT => Amp RETURN:

      Condition 1 met (by adjusting level); Condition 2 not met (Amp RETURN impedance < 7-10x X3 Pro Live Output impedance); POTENTIAL ISSUE

       

      Searching on the Line6 website I've seen a couple of posts regarding problems the 4 cable method, e.g hum, quiet signals, etc etc. I'm guessing that these issues relate to the the impedance mismatch between the X3 Pro's Live (instrument level?) output and an amp's (line-level) RETURN input.

       

      It seems to me therefore that to make this method work in practice I'd need to look at including a DI box to match the instrument level output of the X3 Pro to the line level input of my amp's effects return (Step G), right? However, as I mention above, I'm assuming that the impedance values of the Pod X3 Pro are within industry norms. This should certainly be the case for the SEND and RETURNS, but I am not so sure about the Guitar (Live) output!

       

      If a Line6 moderator is watching this thread can you please confirm the nominal output impedance of the Guitar (Line) output of the Pod X3 Pro? - THANKS!

       

      Sorry if this post is rather technical and all about theory. To balance this, I'd like to ask a quick question to you and the wider audience about practice!

       

      Has anyone actually got a 4 cable-method setup working satisfactorily with the Pod X3 Pro without having to add in a DI Box as well? (If you've been having problems and have got a DI box kicking around it would be fantastic if you could give this a try and let me know if this fixed them!)

       

      best/AL

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