Paul

No worries on Steve's post.  Apart from the slightly offensive remark about deafness it was all fine and his opinion

OK - I have a MkI 112 Combo and a  MkII 212 Combo and not the head in either variant, so to some extent we are talking about slightly different animals here.

When I first got my MkII 212 about this time last year, it came with firmware version 1.17 pre-loaded.  At low levels in the house (and it's quite hard to achieve a low level with any of these amps LOL), the sound of the amp models was quite warm and pleasant.   When the first FX Infusion update was released a few weeks later it gave us more FX and the ability to link to a computer for the purposes of editing, but the models themselves changed a little.   The reason for the change in the amp models was that whilst at low volume they sounded fine, that quality of sound didn't translate as well as the designers felt it could when the amp was turned up to gig levels, and the changes were made to accommodate this.

I can certainly hear a difference in the tone between firmware version 1.17 amp models and those that are there in firmware version 2.00, and at low levels there doesn't seem to be as much bottom end, however at proper gig levels the bottom end does become more as you'd expect it to be.

The choice of speakers has a lot to do with how an amp sounds, and certainly with the combo versions of the Spider Valve MkI and MkII, this is very true.  The combo amps come with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers as stock and there are a variety of opinions on these.  Any new speaker needs to be given about 30 hours of high volume playing to break it in in my opinion and experience.  Some users, particularly with the MkI combo amps felt that the V30 was a very shrill and piercing sounding speaker and others were not as bothered by this - and indeed there may well be a small variation between how different speakers of the same type sound when they are new, plus the biasing of some amps having travelled across the globe from the factory in China may have been slightly different by the time the amps reached the end user and therefore some amps may have sounded warmer or cooler by the time they reached their destination (local power supply conditions can affect this too).  I always found that my SV MkI 112 with its V30 when paired with a 1x12 Marshall cab fitted with a Celestion G12T75 sounded really really good - and very loud - so loud that it easily held its own with another guest guitarist using my Marshall TSL100 and 4x12 and the other regular guitarist also using a Marshall TSL100 and 4x12.

The 4x12 speaker cab that's designed to partner the Spider Valve MkII HD100 is fitted with four Celestion V30 speakers.  The same speakers as fitted to the combo amps.  But in the case of the 4x12 cabinet, it's a sealed cabinet whereas the combo cabinets are two thirds (approx) closed.

So, there's four things in the main that will affect how your amp sounds: 1 - firmware revision; 2 - tube bias; 3 - choice of speaker; 4 - design of the cabinet containing the speaker(s) (ie closed or open.  In most valve amps there are some differences that might be attributable to the make and model of valves used.

In the main this will be related to the pre-amp valves - ie the ones that do the main tone shaping.  The Spider Valve series amps are hybrid amps and don't use pre-amp tubes in the normal sense (all the tone shaping and traditional pre-amp duties are taken care of by the Digital Signal Processing (DSP) and solid state pre-amp section).  The power amp in a Spider Valve does not really affect too much as it is designed to simply amplify whatever comes out of the solid state front end as cleanly as possible, but it does offer  seemingly more volume per Watt than a solid state power amp with the same overall power rating would.  From another post by Spaceatl yesterday about the two 12AX7 valves: V1 is a cascaded buffer that ramps up the voltage to V2 that is the inverter that feeds the power tubes...In this capacity, the 12AX7s are NOT preamp tubes...

I always found my XT Live OK when run into one of my Marshall amps' power amp sections via the FX Return socket.  I never liked the sound of my X3 Live when used this way.  I love the sound of my POD HD500 when played though the power amp of any of my amps.

When using any POD, it is pretty important to get the correct output mode set so that it's appropriate for whatever it's being plugged into.  Plugging into the front guitar input is a totally different ball game from being plugged into the power amp section where a modeller like one of the PODs is concerned.

The Spider II you refer to is a modelling amp in its own right and when you take the output from your XT Live into the front of your Spider II you will be overlaying the XT Live amp models over the top of the Spider II's amp models and what you're hearing therefore won't be what was really intended no matter how good it sounds.   The Spider II is not really capable of a flat response set-up and is probably not the best amp to use with any POD.  If you are going to use your POD with your Spider II, you would probably be better feeding the output of the POD into the MP3 input on the Spider as that will give you a flatter response and will give you sound from the XT Live that is closer to what was intended.

I'm not familiar with the specific Marshall ValveState model that you have, but I assume it doesn't have an FX Return or Power Amp In socket you could use.  If this is the case, the Marshall's pre-amp will almost certainly affect how the output of the XT Live sounds more than .

In addition, there is the phenomenon known as the Fletcher-Munson Effect.  Basically what this explains is the differences in perceived tonality at different loudness levels.  Humans do not perceive low and high freequencies so well at low volume levels and so when creating tones quietly at home for use at gig levels, there will be a natural tendency to over compensate by adding or removing more low and high frequency boost to any patches you might design.   It is vital therefore to create patches that you intend to use for live work at actual gig volume levels to minimise perceptions due to the Fletcher Munson Effect.

The same Fletcher Munson Effect will play its part with any amplification system, whether that be with your Marshall ValveState or a Spider Valve MkII.

It's a pity you don't think your local music store would let you audition a Spider Valve MkII at a decent volume for a couple of hours.  You should enquire about this.   And don't be too shy about it.  You are seriously considering a SV for purchase, so the store should have some provision for you to take a test drive so to speak.  Some stores have a sound-proofed booth for this purpose.  Some stores have a return policy which would effectively let you try an amp out for thirty days with the option of returning it if you don't like it.

Properly set up at gig volume levels my Spider Valve MkII 212 combo doesn't sound at all thin, but when set up at low volume 'bedroom' levels and then taken to rehearsal it is more than likely you'd be surprised by how it sounds - and that surprise is not always a pleasant thing.  You'd really need to try an SV to make your own mind up

A lot of this stuff is subjective anyway, and a lot of this post is my opinion based on my experience.  Very often there is no right or wrong way to work - trust your ears

Regards

Nick

Steve

Yes I agree that 60ms is noticeable.    However, I don't think that 60ms is necessarily a constant here.  Sometimes, it might be more or sometimes it might be less.  As the performer you'll hear it and you'll feel it, but in reality 60ms is a remarkably short amount of time - particularly in most venues where the natural reverb in the room will cover this kind of gap as far as the listener is concerned. I'm not excusing a 60ms gap, or saying it isn't a problem for you - it obviously is.   As the guitar player you, me or whoever is going to be much more sensitive to stuff like this or the odd fleeting bum note that we play than anyone listening.

There is this thing too where you (or me) might notice a characteristic of a piece of equipment which seems to stick out like a sore thumb to you and you simply cannot un-notice it.   You, me or whoever - we are well capable of focusing on something relatively minor to the point where it becomes a HUGE issue and is so off-putting that we can't actually use the equipment without feeling intensely uncomfortable or worried that the characteristic is going to make us look or sound bad, and that feeling is self perpetuating, and the issue grows even larger in our minds.  I am one of the world's worst.  In 1993 I bought a brand new and in perfect condition Patrick Eggle Berlin Pro guitar in Antique Gold translucent finish - a real sweet guitar.  Instantly comfortable and easy to play.  It always attracted attention from my mates who wanted to 'have a go'.  I'm not sure what happened, but the tiniest of tiny nicks appeared in the middle of the back of the neck and I couldn't remember doing it, and I'm pretty sure that no-one had done anything deliberately or even accidentally.  However I could feel this nick every time I played the guitar - it was about three weeks old, that's all.  It became a massive issue to me and I really couldn't stand to play the guitar.  I tried to fix it using the Super Glue trick.  I got a slight 'nib' which needed flatting down, so I got some 1200 grade wet and dry paper which I further blunted by rubbing two sheets together.  I took the utmost care to be gentle and to flat this nib down, but unfortunately the lacquer was very soft at the side of the Super Glue (probably the cause of the initial problem) and I just started to cut through to wood.  Aaarggh.  I stopped right there.  I phoned Patrick Eggle Guitars the next day and explained what had happened, what I'd done to try and remedy the situation and what had gone wrong and that I really couldn't stand to play this beautiful guitar with what in reality was a very very minor problem.  I was really enquiring as to the type of lacquer they'd used so I could fix the issue myself.  I didn't over-play or exaggerate the damage.  I explained that it was a very small area indeed, but that i could feel it.  The guy on the phone was great and he just said 'We can't have that.  Send it to us and we'll sort it'.  They did a great job - FOC.  I still have that guitar, and it's still stunning it is still pretty 'ding' free.  I know I was over-reacting about the little nick in the neck lacquer.  I know that any guitar is going to get a ding now and again - most of my guitars (and I have quite a few) are somewhat battle scarred - and some even have little nicks in the neck, but that particular guitar with that little nick in the neck was unplayable for me.  It was in my head for sure.

My point?  Well, what sometimes seems to be a massive problem to us, would not be of any real consequence to someone else.  60ms is 60ms.  60ms is a very short amount of time - yes it's audible if you leave a note ringing whilst you switch, but it is a very short amount of time nevertheless.  I'm certain that this kind of gap would be a massive issue for me in a recording situation, but in a live situation, almost certainly not so much.

I really don't notice switching latency such as you are describing however to the same degree you do, which leads me to believe that there may be some differences between the amps we have other than just the difference between them (mine) being a 212 combo and yours being an HD100 or perhaps it has something to do with the reported channel volume 'pop' issue that some get and others (me for instance) don't.   My presets are all pretty much saved with the channel volume at 50% or more.  Differences in playing style might account for some differences in perception.   I may instinctively mute ringing strings when I switch patches - that is a very real possibility, as I would consider doing so to be the correct thing to do.....but not everyone would consider this necessarily correct...It's not like I have not deliberately set out to try and hear the issue either

You're not the only one who hears or notices a gap when switching, but then I'm not the only one who doesn't have this problem either.  Who is right and who is wrong?  Neither I guess.  There has to be some other explanation - and deafness or an inability to recognise the gap doesn't cut it I'm afraid.  I'm willing to accept any time that I might be wrong and if in this case I could notice the kind of gaps you're talking about and if those gaps actually caused me a problem, I'd be pretty upset given that I spent £630 on something that pauses when I change patches, but seriously that doesn't happen for me.  It doesn't happen for fairly significant numbers of other SV MkII users based on reports in this forum either, so we can't all be mistaken, just the same as fairly significant numbers who reckon there is an issue can't all be mistaken either.

I do change patches mid-song - if the song requires it.  Seriously - no issues.   For me the SV is a gigging amp - it's fine as just that.  I bought it as a gigging amp.  It's not my only amp

Personally, I wasn't at all offended by your remark about deafness, and I too think politcal correctness can go too far sometimes, but I think here in these forums we all need to keep things on an even keel - even when there are healthy disagreements and differences in opinion.  I just felt that particular remark went a little bit too far and was unnecessary - that's all.  I thought the rest of your post was very informative and helpful - after all that's what these forums are mainly about

I'm not a Line 6 employee - just a user like you.   I wasn't involved in beta testing the MkII SV.  I think you'll find that a lot of the Line 6 staff you'll see participating here and quite a large proportion of those who work behind the scenes are musicians, and that being the case many of them will be involved in pre-release testing programmes and will have used the equipment extensively before we got any indication that there was a new Spider Valve available.

Incidentally, if you were to re-flash the firmware back to version 1.17, would the switching latency issue still give you the same sort of problem?  Would the gap be the same, shorter or longer than with f/w version 2.00?

Nick