Nov 10, 2010 7:36 AM
Aren't the left outputs always mono/mixed when used alone?
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Latest reply:
Nov 8, 2011 7:29 PM by
gregr 
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I'll have to test it to be certain, but I think you'd want to pan everything hard L and go only out of the L XLR. It wouldn't make sense that you could pan center or hard L and get the full sound out of the L XLR, but not pan between hard L and center (if that makes any sense, lol).
Cheers,
Fester2k
OK Fester, You lost me on that one! LOL Try that again in english!
Dan
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Dbourget wrote:
I'll have to test it to be certain, but I think you'd want to pan everything hard L and go only out of the L XLR. It wouldn't make sense that you could pan center or hard L and get the full sound out of the L XLR, but not pan between hard L and center (if that makes any sense, lol).
Cheers,
Fester2k
OK Fester, You lost me on that one! LOL Try that again in english!
Dan
I think Silverhead said it better, LOL. If there's no summing of the XLR signal, then unless you're fully panned to the left, you'll be losing some component of the sound that is intended for the right side (assuming you've got any type of stereo signal - again, if you're using a fully mono signal, none of this matters).
But it is hard for me to fully get my head around this w/o being able to try these things on the unit, so go try a few things, see what you find out. I'll do the same tonight, hopefully.
Cheers,
Fester2k
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Dbourget wrote:
To be honest Fester I'm not trying to but I'm seeing different answers from different people and that is confusing me. Could you explain what you just said?
We have been talking about coming out of the Left XLR and going to the PA channel and trying to get sum of both L & R from the 500. What is the panner? Why am I going to turn everything to the rignt now?
I'm sorry about all the questions about this but it does seem I'm not the only one trying to understand how to get a full L & R sum signal to just the Left XLR out.
Dan
No worries - I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been - you asked about placing effects after the "mixer" (I said "panner" but I should have said "mixer") and wondering whether they will sound right. The answer is that they won't, unless you move all amp and effects blocks ahead of the HD's "mixer" (which sits right behind the amp in the default setting).
Also, I thought we were trying to get everything out of the right side. Call me dyslexic, lol.
So the correct answer is:
"To sum all of your effects and amps out of the left side, simply place all amps and effects block ahead of (to the left) of the HD's mixer. Then, on the mixer itself, pan everything hard left."
Using that approach, all your pre amp fx, your amp(s), and your post amp fx will be summed to mono on the left side.
Ok, hope that clears it up!
Cheers,
Fester2k
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And to add to the discussion..
Will panning hard left also mean that monitoring via headphones only gives you a sound on the left side?
I guess this is not really desirable while 'designing' the tone you're after.
Panning to center would also resolve this.
So I hope Line6 could give us the final answer!
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Dbourget wrote:
I repeat my question..........
OK Gents,
Going back to the Left XLR out on the HD 500. If I come out of the LEFT XLR OUT on the 500 (which I do ) and go into the PA channel and I am using 1 amp and all MONO effects and whatnot, and in the HD MIXER I turn BOTH PAN knobs to the LEFT, will my signal out be a sum of both left and right and is using this configuration correct for MONO out to a PA channel?
Dan
No 1/4", No Headphones, Just an XLR out the left output going into 1 channel of the PA Board.
Dan - I confirmed this was indeed one way of getting a perfectly valid mono signal out of the left XLR output in my last post - but there are others too
Nick
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"Dan - I confirmed this was indeed one way of getting a perfectly valid mono signal out of the left XLR output in my last post - but there are others too
Nick"
Thanks Nick. I've been using my HD 500 set up this way since day one and I guess I'll just leave well enough alone. Got to tell you though, this has been one hell of a discussion!
Dan
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No beating of a dead horse required Phil
. I was tempted to mention your previously mentioned thought on referring to the PAN controls and apparent lack of PAN LAW application as balance controls, because yes in effect that's exactly what they are, and thought I had put it in my post, but looking through it I hadn't (but I meant to, sorry...)On the summing at output thing with the 1/4" jacks. The summing actually happens at the jacks, and I believe it's nothing more sophisticated than the mechanical switch contacts in the jack sockets themselves which control whether or not the signals are summed to mono or not (I may be wrong, but that is what I recall having seen documented somewhere). That being the case (and I did prove this using a ping-pong delay post mixer block) you will hear both sides of a stereo signal chain combined from the 1/4" outputs whether the mixer block has been set up to pan hard left and hard right or centre. You may get some imbalnces I guess if the PAN controls are set up differently and somewhere between hard left/right and centre. We already know that the perceived signal is stronger from a single 1/4" output when the pan controls are set to centre.
If using a single XLR output yes, there could potentially be some information missing in any event - no matter where the pan controls were located if a true stereo effect were to be placed post mixer block. But to get around that potential problem all you'd need to do would be to place true stereo FX post amp and cab but pre mixer block and have the mixer block at the end of the chain as in the attached example.
The attached tone: Made Up Tone is not intended to be anything special or that I would really use. It's a quick illustration and that's all. Pan settings are at full left and right. It definitely sums everything to mono when only one 1/4" out is used as can be verified by plugging in a single 1/4" instrument cable, listening and then swapping the 1/4" instrument cable to the other socket and comparing; then plugging a dummy jack into the unoccupied 1/4" socket, listening, and; finally swapping the dummy jack and instrument cable. Listening to the 1/4" instrument cable alone in either socket produces the same output. Listening separately to the sound of the 1/4" instrument cable in the Left output socket and the dummy plug in the Right produces different signals to both when a single instrument cable alone is connected (expected) and when the instrument cable is plugged in to the Right output with the dummy in the Left - again expected. That's the 1/4" outputs.
Because the XLR and headphone outputs always retain their position in the stereo sound stage whether one output or both are used, the attached example patch would output mono from the Left XLR out if the pan controls in the HD500 were panned full left or if they were panned dead centre. You would experience a difference in level no doubt but as long as the pan controls were set 100% left or dead centre you would get a 100% mono signal (or you could use the Right XLR and pan everything hard right of course.
The problem with panning dead centre or hard left/right and missing stereo info might appear obvious at the XLR sockets if a true stereo effect like Ping Pong delay were to be used post the HD500 mixer block as you have pointed out, because the effect would be post the pan controls. This also affects headphones out but doesn't affect the 1/4" outs unless using both.
I think we're on the same page anyway
Nick
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Octo777 wrote:
Is it really actually neccassary to pan both A and B out hard left?
I mean, say for instance you are sending one XLR out to the FOH desk and the other to an onstage monitor.
Now obviously if this is the case, you won't be worrying about/using stereo effects and therefore if you set both A and B to the centre in the mixing block, you are in essence providing the same mono signal to both outputs, no?
And if in fact you do still have some stereo effects in the mix and you have everything panned hard left, this will create a break in sound when the sound is passing through the right channel?
Intuition says to me that panning the XLR's to the centre is the correct way to create a true mono output in that instance.
Octo -
You're correct, but with a big asterisk - you've essentially assumed away the one sticky issue that prompted this thread - getting a truly "summed" mono signal when there are stereo fx or dual amps, rather than one side of a stereo signal. If the raw signal is purely mono (one amp, no stereo fx), then no, you don't need to pan anything b/c every version of the sound will be the same, regardless of what piece of the stereo spectrum is sent out of the XLR outs.
But - if you've got a stereo chorus, reverb, delay, anything stereo at all post amp (or, of course, dual amps), then not panning both signals hard left will give you less than a fully summed, mono signal. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it, unless and until someone demonstrates otherwise.
Cheers,
Fester2k
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he guys, i just did a simple test and i'll summarise it as simply as possible!
in all tests, i used a stereo delay to test for left and right signals.
and as stated in the manual, both channel A and B are stereo channels themselves.
test 1: amp block off, stereo delay in pre mixer, before amp block. both channels panned left. result: both channels are heard on the left XLR.
test 2: amp block on, stereo delay in pre mixer, after amp block, in channel A*. channel B empty. both channels panned left. result: only left delay is heard on the left XLR. vice versa for right channel when all was panned to the right
test 3: amp block on, stereo delay in pre mixer, after amp block, in mono (neither channel A nor B). result: i could not do test 3 because hd500 doesn't allow me to* because it will force the block to either be in A or B which are themselves, two individual stereo channels.
conclusion: if you wanted summed ouput on XLR, it is possible, provided you are not planning to use any stereo effect after the amp block as in test 1. (which defeats the purpose of this thread anyway because if you are only using mono effects, why bother about "summed output"?) as can be seen in test 2 and test 3 which could not be done, the real conclusion is, if you want to save yourself the headache, put your stereo effects after the mixer, use the TS 1/4" jack and a DI box if necessary. (**there is a work around below)
again, a summary, from my tests, there is no way to get what was meant for the right channel in a stereo effect, to be in the left channel using the mixer if this said effect is to be placed after the amp block.
**work around: a dummy mono effect at the end of the chain. refering to: http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2099 it seems some viable transparent effect belonging to the dynamic section could be used, such as the vetta comp or the noisegate with threshold set way high.
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Left plus right divided by two; the sum of left and right divided by two; divide left by two, divide right by two and then sum the quotients together. These are all equivalent ways of describing the mathematical representation.
Regarding your displeasure with my comment, I believe it is in the best interest of the community that when there is the potential to present accurate information rather than speculate, the former should be more desirable. It is that you have decided to weigh in without first verifying that has made me testy. As an expert, I would hope you would not engage in unnecessary speculation, ignoring the fact that your speculation is provably incorrect.
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