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1506 Views 16 Replies Latest reply: Jan 4, 2013 12:53 AM by perapera RSS
cwlivingston Just Startin' 8 posts since
Sep 7, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Jun 15, 2011 11:33 AM

Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

Looking for help here, looks like lots of other people are very confused about this, too.

 

Of course I understand the concept of dual signal paths and stereo guitar rigs, but the way that the virtual mixer block is integrated into the system is not intuitive at all.

 

Basically, I'm a single/mono amp guy. Looking to create a simple signal path of guitar->stomp boxes->amp->reverbs/delays etc.->physical outputs

 

Sounds simple enough, right? But I've already discovered that it's not so simple.

 

First, regardless of where you place the mixer block, the dual input choices in the utilities screen will both feed whatever your first virtual block is, be it fx, amp, mixer, etc. If you select 1.Guitar 2.Same (seems to be the default setting for most presets) then you are effectively doubling your guitar signal's strength before it even hits the first block (and I love L6's advice here - "lower your instrument's volume"...I won't go on the obvious rant here but we all know most guitar players like to ride their volume pots high for tonal reasons). I use a Strat so I didn't have the distortion/fizz problem that a lot of humbucker players have described, but I did notice that all the presets - even when I disabled all the glossy effects and stripped down to amp/spkr/mic - sounded too gainy and compressed.

 

Setting input two to "mic" did make an instant improvement, but still not where I thought it should be in terms of realism and dynamic range. Plus, now I got the mic input's hiss in the sound.

 

Next, I moved the amp AFTER the mixer block and reduced input B's level to mute on the mixer block. I figured that would solve everything except the nice option of one day later using the mixer block at some other point in the chain (or doing parallel input paths like compressors etc).

 

Again, noticeable improvement instantly, so I must be doing something right. Then it occurred to me that if I set path A's pan to center, that should theoretically get as close to a mono guitar->stomps->amp as you can get.

 

Trouble is, how do I know which option is unity gain? Leaving A panned 100% definitely provides a cleaner input signal, but is that signal -3dB, or is that some kind of default/unity gain, and center panned signal is actually +3dB? I see no point in spending $500 on this thing if I can't even replicate the signal path of, say, plugging the guitar straight into the amp model without any artificial gain staging in between.

  • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 15, 2011 1:27 PM (in response to cwlivingston)
    Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

    As far as the input settings, why don't you set the second input to Variax instead of mic? Then you'll won't have to worry about the mic preamp giving you any extra noise.

     

    As far as the mixer block itself, the one thing you've discovered that I've mentioned a few times here is that the pan control isn't really a pan as much as it is a balance. So if you have it set to center, you have two signals, the left and the right, for that tone at 100% volume. When you have it set hard right or left, you only have one signal at 100% volume. So, in reality, they are both unity gain, it's just depends on what you're doing as far as mono and stereo effects is. If you're not using stereo effects, and you are running in mono, hard panning will give you unity gain. The only "danger" in hard panning is if you put a stereo effect after the amp but before the mixer block. Other than that you should be fine.

      • Mincer Just Startin' 119 posts since
        Jan 27, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jun 15, 2011 6:54 PM (in response to cwlivingston)
        Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

        This is one of the best explainations so far of the 'mono/stereo' mixer problem. Would it be possible to post a few sample patches so we can see graphically (in the editor) what is going on?

         

        I know 1/4" outputs sum to mono when one is used, but XLRs are incapable of this feature. You can always use a direct box from the 1/4" out, or have 2 sets of patches- one for 'stereo' editing or recording, and one for live use, with both sides panned left. Both are pretty inelegant solutions.

      • Pezza Just Startin' 75 posts since
        Jun 18, 2007
        Currently Being Moderated
        Jun 16, 2011 2:11 AM (in response to cwlivingston)
        Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

        Thanks for making more sense of the over complicated HD500 routing! I think there should be a default 1 input setting (with the first part of the chain mono until you use a stereo fx). Surely only a small minority of users are using both inputs - maybe with the JTV or to use a mic. Most people will be plugging one guitar into the input and don't want to be worrying about signal doubling.

         

        As it is, for a mono set up, I agree you're best using one input and placing your fx/amp on one side of the parallel routing then set the mixer 'balance' to the centre and mute the other side.

         

        For a dual amp set up with mono fx before the amp you also need to use 1 input and put the mono fx in the first series section feeding both amps. If you use both inputs you double up on the signal into the mono fx with undesirable results (usually).

         

        For a dual amp set up with no mono fx infront of the amp you have to use both inputs or you'll lose one amp.

         

        The annoying part comes when you want to use a mono fx infront of dual amps and turn the fx off/on. You'll have to use both inputs (to get dual amps working when fx off) and so the fx is being given a double signal - very poor.

         

        Line 6 don't even seem to understand it, which is why many of the presets sound bad - they're feeding both inputs (second input set to 'same') into amps/fx and feeding them a double guitar signal. Guitarists spend a lot of time/money getting the output level of their pickups as they want it - they don't want that level screwed up the second they plug it into their amp (modeller).

         

        I do love the HD500 but wish the flexibility hadn't made this aspect so awkward/un-intuitive to use.

        • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
          Jan 25, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Jun 16, 2011 6:19 AM (in response to Pezza)
          Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

          Well, you have to split the signal going to dual amps somehow. It's not much different than if you had an actual dual amp in the real world. You have to think through these signal routing issues and come up with what you want to do. There's no silver bullet solution because everyone wants to do something a little different. I don't see what's being described as a bug or flaw, really, it's just that it could be described with a bit more clarity in the manuals. In the real world, if you wanted to put a mono effect before dual amps, you'd have to figure out how to split the signal after the mono effect. I believe on the HD500 if you put a stereo effect after a mono effect but before the dual amps, you can split the signal going into the amp without having to have the second input on.

           

          Personally, I think too big of a deal is being made about the signal doubling. It is an issue for some people, but there are probably a lot of people who won't even notice it. A 3dB boost won't have that detrimental of an effect on a lot of pickups.

            • phil_m Expert Line 6 User 4,243 posts since
              Jan 25, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jun 16, 2011 2:34 PM (in response to cwlivingston)
              Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

              Actually, I may have to take back what I said earlier about it not being described well enough in the manual - I just took a look at the Advanced Guide for the bean, and it's described pretty well.

               

              The page 3 options allow you to select either the “GUITAR” or “MIC” physical inputs to be used as the “Source” Inputs 1 and/or 2. These settings are saved per Preset.
              About Source Input Signal Routing: It is important to note how POD HD actually routes Source Inputs 1 and 2 through Amp & FX Blocks that are positioned “Pre” position. The following behaviors apply:


              • In a configuration with no Amp or FX Blocks in Pre, Input 1 is fed only to Path A and Input 2 only to Path B. Therefore, this is the best configuration if you want to retain discrete Input Sources into Paths A & B.
              • Placing an Amp Block or an active mono FX Model in Pre results in a “summing” of Input Sources 1 & 2, feeding the same, combined signal into these Pre-positioned Models, and thus into each Path A & B. You may need to adjust your instrument’s volume level to avoid overloading your Pre-positioned Amp or FX Models.
              • Placing a Stereo FX Model in Pre results in the left channel FX output being fed to Path A and its right output to Path B.*
              • The Mixer Block’s Volume and Pan options provide independent control for Path A & B outputs before they are fed through any Blocks positioned “Post” the Mixer.
              • By setting Input 2 to “Same,” this effectively routes your Input Source to both stereo Paths A & B (which is how you can feed one guitar input into two Amp Models and/or parallel FX, for example).

               

              It doesn't outright say that you'd want to mute Path B for a true mono path. I don't think that this level of complexity is too much to expect for a device that offers as much as the Bean or the HD500. Let's not forget that for those who don't want to deal with it, there's always the HD300 or 400.

  • Tony-N Just Startin' 1 posts since
    Nov 29, 43428
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 17, 2011 10:58 AM (in response to cwlivingston)
    Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

    I'm currently waiting for the POD HD to hit the retailers here in Sweden, so I downloaded the manual to read it beforehand and have it all kind of figured out when the unit comes.

     

    No strange things at all, as expected, except for this more than slightly confusing signal routing from the inputs...

     

    I have to agree with cwlivingston, they sure have made it more complicated than it should be. Having a true mono setup available as a "default" seems like a better starting place for most guitarists instead of this advanced routing.

    This actually made me hesitate to buy the Bean, even though I'm not afraid of having to figure out signal routings and other problems.

     

    Thanks to cwlivingston for taking time to experiment and inform us about about the findings...

  • perapera Just Startin' 40 posts since
    Jun 19, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 4, 2013 12:53 AM (in response to cwlivingston)
    Re: Can't Understand the HD Mixer Block!

    hi cwlivingston

    I know this thread is old, but anyway I wanted to advise you and anyone interested to read another thread I started:

    http://line6.com/support/thread/90441

     

    here you can find some answers to your questions just by following the signal flow on the graphs I drew and reading the description I wrote below them

     

    please read it and only after reading that come back here and read this:

     

     

     

    your setup with only path-A active has nothing wrong but is by no means different from other setups obtaining exactly the same gain staging and stereo-mono routing

     

    for example if you set:

    - guitar/same as the two inputs

    - mixer channel-A level to unity and pan to center and path-B to mute

     

    these four setups give you exactly the same gain and "mono-to-stereo" panning:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8875989/Pod_HD_forums/1%20path-A_only.pnghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/8875989/Pod_HD_forums/2%20path-A_only_(mono-to-stereo).pnghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/8875989/Pod_HD_forums/3%20pre-path%2Bpath-A.pnghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/8875989/Pod_HD_forums/4%20pre-path.png

     

    also with this last setup, if you set:

    - guitar/same as the two inputs

    - mixer channel-A and B levels to unity and pan hard left and right

     

    you get the same result in a fifth way.

     

    notice that this fifth way is exactly the default "new tone" blank patch (with guitar/same instead ov everything/same as input selection);

    see here: http://line6.com/support/message/405388#405388

     

    bye

    Lore

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