Currently Being ModeratedAug 10, 2011 6:18 AM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I understand your frustration. I have the DT-to HD and a 412 with V30s. It take awhile to get used to. There are almost too many options. Let me give you a few suggestions.
- Make sure the software for your DT-50 is updated. Without it, the POD and DT-50 will not talk to each other the way they should. The POD should be up to date also.
- You like the sounds of the DT-50 on its own. Use the pre-amp models in the POD HD that correlate to the voicings in the DT-50 I is a Fender, II is a Marshall JTM-45 or Park, III is a Vox, and IV is a Mesa Boogie.
- Are you using the L6 link? This should change the output mode of the POD to COMBO PWR AMP, which is correct. If you are not, make sure you are connected properly to the DT-50 and using the correct output mode.
- Start your preset in the POD with nothing but the Pre-Amp model. Tweak your settings on the DT-50 while you are playing and it will change the settings on the POD. When you find the sound you want, save it. Trick: Use the Looper to record yourself and play that back while you are tweaking the knobs.
- Then worry about adding gates, delays and other effects.
I think I covered everything. This should really help you get on the right path. If you have any more questions, feel free to reach out.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 10, 2011 11:37 AM (in response to hollis1003)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I bought my DT50/212 + HD500 around the same time as you. All I can say up front: welcome to the club!
As hollis I can understand your frustration quite well. This rig is complex and the complexity goes beyond any modeling rig or any traditional tube amp guitar setup. The simple reason: it's a hybrid system. That means you need to understand different tube amp behaviour AND modeling technology in the same way. And that - depending on your experience - can take some time.
The good story: it is extremley versatile and you can squeeze out a lot of stellar sounds. For live-giging with the need of different music styles it is outstanding to me. And I honestly have to say that I do not feel that I have come to the very end of my personal learning curve.
To help you a bit better it should have been necessary that you are more precisely so forum members can give you specific anwers to a specific question. (Think about that and come back later.)
In addition to hollis suggestions - which are very valuable - and for the meantime I like to give you some more general suggestions which could be helpful for you (???). As I understand you are more band oriented (less recording or "bed room guitar hero" activity). The following focuse on using the DT50/HD500 as a giging-rig.
1. Reduce complexity where ever you can:
- Reduce the number of amp models to an absolute minimum. What guitar styles/sound do you want to play? (as much as possible would be a bad answer). Bare in mind a lot of guitarists need several months do deal with ONE tube amp for live-giging. I ended up with 4 and I am thinking to reduce them to 3 in the future. They are more or less the 4 voicings of the DT50: I: BF Double; II: PARK-75; II: JCM800; IV: Treadplate. The pre amp models in the HD500 are at 100% the 4 Voicings of the DT50. (DT50 voicings are: BF Double; PARK-75; AC30; Treadplate but with Voicing 4 instead of 3). Also bare in mind: they all have a very different sound spectrum: to fit them properly in a band-mix is a challenge.I cannot imagine that you will achieve a good band sound with 32 different amp models without a lot of time consuming tweaking at gig volume level. (The man on the mixer will kill you).
- Reduce the number of different FXs you are using: don't get lost in never ending tweakings with for example different delays, etc. Use 1 or 2 tapped delays for all your patches. Do the same with distortion pedals, etc.
Bare in mind: all of them sound different. At the end of the day you must handle them in the future AND they all influence your sound. That means the overall band mix is influenced by them too. And your overall band mix will never be on a consistent high sound level if you bring in a complex puzzle of different items (just my subject ideas).
- Try to use 1 set of patches for all environments: at home, rehearsal, live. I am now using 1 set of patches. Temporarily I tried to maintain 2 sets, 1 for low volume environment and 1 for loud volume environments. It couldn't handle this.
- Use only one type of amp models: the best sound you will get is using the pre amp models. I have gone through various setups: pre amp model, full amp model with master volume pulled out/not pulled out. At the end that's it for me.
2. Handle the "volume challenge"
LEVEL THE VOLUME OF PATCHES
The amp models vary heavily at volume level. This is not a LINE6 failure. It is the nature of these amps. So you have to level the volume of a BF Deluxe and Treadplate to gig with them.
The only way to do this is to play those patches in your rehearsal room at gig volume level with a playback of your songs. This is EXTREMLY important.
What I do:
- I use an external volume pedal to vary volume level within a song if I really need it. Normaly my volume pedal
is not in use.
- I set all amp volumes in all patches at 50%.
- Some amp models use the DRIVE-knob for gain (as I remember it is the BF deluxe). Use them otherwise they are way too silent in relation to other amps e.g. the Treadplate.
- Use the mixer-volume to level the different amp models. If this is not enough you can add a tube comp at the very end of the signal chain to increase gain. (set threshold to 100% and increase/decrease gain with the other parameter which I have forgotten it's name).
LEVEL THE VOLUME OF YOUR AMP
The DT50 is a very loud amp. To play a tube driven sound e.g. with the PARK-75 pre amp model (I LOVE IT !!!)
you have to set amp volume around 50% and master volume above 50% (real tube saturation starts for me at 60-70%) with master volume not pulled out. AND THAT IS EXTREMLY LOUD. And this was one big problem I nearly struggled with.
How to level your amp volume:
- Pull the master volume out. The easiest way to go. But you won't have the best sound, because the digital part of the tone building is higher. And your sound will vary depending on the environment you are playing. You have to decide if that fits to you.
- Invest additional money in a good power attenuator. You can achieve a nearly consistent sound regardless of your volume level (at home, rehearsal, gig). This is my way to go.
3. Test your patches a gig volume level
Tweak at home your patches. BUT: Spend sufficient time to finish them in your rehearsal room at gig volume level! Play with a playback and listen how you cut through in the overall mix.
What I heard in difference to home:
- clean patches were distorting at gig volume level (to much drive / gain)
- a lot of higain patches were too hot: to much Drive or to much gain in distortion pedals.
- some patches were to bassy and/or to much treble and less mids
Well: there is a lot of more to say, but I am afraid there are too much chestnuts without having more input from you.
Anyway: hope I could give you a bit more confidence and ideas to get used to that lovely beast called DT50/HDXXX.
Good luck and Rock On!
Currently Being ModeratedAug 15, 2011 9:35 AM (in response to SStiv)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I use pre amp models WITH standard cab/mic sims. Although I am not a technical guy I think that is the way the DT50 in it's standalone version is running it's 4 Voicings. At the end of the day cab/mic sims are just specifiy EQ-typs.
Apart of that I did a lot of testing and pre amp models WITH standard cab/mic sims sounds best to me and this is - for me - identical to the sound of the original DT50 voicings which are more or less my main tube models I am using.
Currently Being ModeratedOct 23, 2011 7:02 AM (in response to wolbai)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
One thing I discovered with volume on my DT50. Adding a DrZ airbrake made a world of difference for that tube saturation and I gig with it always. It's a great investment! I've had guitarists at our shows come up and ask me "whats that grey Box?" I wish I had one years ago and only found out about Attenuators as of late.
Currently Being ModeratedOct 23, 2011 8:03 AM (in response to bartpuglise)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I use a SPL Attenuator. I think he is as versatile as your DrZ airbrake (not sold in my country) and of good sound quality also at lower volume levels.
I think especially with vintage amps like the PARK-75 you can hear that creamy tube driven distortion sound at a reasonable volume level. How much do you open your master volume on your DT50 (I have set mine fixed at three o'clock)?
Currently Being ModeratedOct 23, 2011 9:03 AM (in response to wolbai)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Two o'clock with only preamp models and cab/mic sims ON. Love it!!!! Finally checked out a JTV 59 at guitar center last week! Guess my wife's gonna be mad Again when I come home with that! Great guitar!!
Currently Being ModeratedOct 23, 2011 9:29 AM (in response to bartpuglise)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Have you tested cab/mic sims off? I know there are no rules on that. Currently I use cab/mic sims off. It sound a little bit more closer to the DT50 voicings to me. But on the higain models with a 4x12 cabs as standard cab/mic sims it sounds not that bassy with a combo. Anyhow that's just a matter of taste.
I've ordered a JTV 69 - should be delivered in 2 weeks (!?).
I will tell my wife that I have bought a new set of strings - unfortunatelly they were only sold with a special holder .
Currently Being ModeratedOct 24, 2011 5:52 PM (in response to wolbai)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Funny I have spent the last year checking these boards and posting regularly, some rant .. some helpfulness. I thought I'd check in today just to see. Of course more of the same I have seen for the last year, no surprise there. My rig ended up being a mesa/boogie ta-30 1x12; voodoo labs wahzoo, tc electronic delay and chorus, and a xotic ac plus (all true bypass) loaded on a pedaltrain board. I have the amp set up for basically a sweet fender reverb clean, and channel two is basically a marshal 45 or a gritty tweed sound depending on how i feel for the day (100% tube). I honestly have all the tones I can possibly ask for with the less complex rig. I am still tweeking but it is a short adjustment and on to playing something. Still havn't recorded anything yet but i have done some sample tests with a 57 in front of the cone and had pretty darn good results pre-eqing. I either use the 15 watt or 30 watt class A settings but honestly I am still being told to turn down as most good tube saturation for crunch is still higher on the volume then my wife wants to hear upstairs. Can't say I blame her really. I have a weber mass lite 100watt coming wednesday due to the wife thing. Not sure I am going to like it but ..... we got to do what we got to do I suppose its either that or build a seperate building for jamming (sounds great to me...). One thing that I noticed getting *cough cough* imo a much higher quality amp/effects is my guitars sounded a lot different. My mainstay was a epiphone ultra II which I was able to use the nanomag acoustic pickup with good results using the hd500 due to the eq's and mixer and tons of stuff to bring it out - which i no longer have. The guitar now sounds muddy with such a transparent rig i am running. My dbz imperial fm became my go to guitar after some adjustments it gets me a much much better tone than the epi. I am now looking to get a guitar to match the rig due to the imperial having a bit to slim of a neck for extended bar chording. But I am not in a huge hurry. I honestly have no desire to have more effects than a booster/delay/chorus/reverb/od/wah with the amps 2 channels and use of the guitars volume/tone/coil split the array is actually more than what i need, I am really going back to basics.
To the above post talking about his fender reverb reissue without enough clean headroom, I would suggest adding speakers for that clean headroom, I believe it has a speaker out. If that don't work pick up a used small tube amp to run stereo and get that dimension your seeking. For my needs as a middle age jam room rocker with once a month playing out needs I won't need more power than this amp can give but if i did then a external speaker or mic'n would do fine i imagine.
As for the quest for tone, it will never end .. especially for me. But I think for me personally I am headed in the right direction for a change. Happy hunting my brothers and sisters, I wish you all the best!
Currently Being ModeratedAug 10, 2011 12:52 PM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Hi Kevin - I think you've gotten some excellent and detailed help in other POD HD + DT50 owners/users. I'm not going to write a book on how I set up my HD500 + dual DT50 1x12 combos. The photo on my profile shows just how complicated my performance set up is since I'm using all the NEW gear plus all my OLDER gear TOGETHER with both older Variax guitars and my new JTV guitars.
I'm only chiming to say that I agree that this combination of gear is VERY complex. Each can certainly stand on it's own, but are designed to seamlessly work together PROVIDED you LEARN HOW to make it all work to get the sounds you want or need.
If this has not been written in the replies of the other guys...Have you tried downloading presets made by Line 6 users? I have posted dozens myself especially several patches that allow Variax users to get an amazing acoustic amplifiers to compliment the terrific acoustic guitar sounds that have been significantly improved with the new JTV line. And they work either just with the HD500 or the combination of HD500 + DT50.
So that is my addition to this discussion is...try all the suggestions others before me have given, but also find the POD HDxxx patches that myself and opthers using this gear have created and posted. Just be certain that the patches you find are made to INCLUDE the DT50 and not just for the POD HDxxx unit alone. Those of us who are using both pieces of this puzzle Line 6 created have discovered that when using both elements, they do need to be set to compliment each other.
Final word - I DO think that Line 6 made the wrong choice in going this way with their "Flagship" lines of gear. I still think the Vetta was the best amp ever made by Line 6, and although many disagree...I know what I know and I will continue to use BOTH since the new gear simply cannot do what the Vetta can do by itself. Funny how all the CPU processing power that was dfiscussed for the past two years on these forums talked mainly about what we the users wanted. However, Line 6 CHOSE to just do what THEY thought was the best way to go for the company and for users that are famous who might not even program any of their own equipment. Does anyone think at this stage of things "The Edge" progams his own TON of FX units?? Nope, that's what his guitar tech is for. He just says what he wants a sound to be and does not have to think of how to make all that gear actually DO the sound or sounds he wants. Same with "Steve Vai" and many many other famous players. They do not need to know how to work with the gear, just what sounds they want from the gear and have other people learn and work the equipment. Then after all the work the techs do, the "famous" guitarist is TOLD what button or buttons to hit by the tech or even labelled on their complex pedalboards where each sound is. I firmly believe that Line 6 should have made TWO LEVELS of the POD HD line. One "sub-line"should be like their older gear - plug and play with very little tweaking, the other "sub-line" can then be even more extensive in functionality for those who do know how this stuff works, or have the time to sit and learn/experiment with it.
I guess I did write a small book afterall.
Best of luck to all who have this gear and are not happy. It really IS excellent equipment.
Maybe someday Line 6 will PAY ME to give master classes that I've been doing on my own here in Central Florida for the past few years. LOL
Currently Being ModeratedAug 10, 2011 1:12 PM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Lots of good tips here...I am going to suggest a slightly different route...
Use the DT-50 with a channel switch
4 cable the HD500 into the DT50
GTR->HD500 GTR input
HD L FX Send->DT-50 GTR input (stomp level)
DT50 FX Send->HD L FX Return
HD Left 1/4 out->DT50 FX Return
Setup a patch with 4 FX blocks on the left of the FX Loop and 4 FX Blocks on the right...turn the amp model to NONE...turn on the loop in the patch...now you have a template...
Sure, this is a little busy on the cables...But the reason I suggest this is that you are getting some good results out of the amp itself and this would help you get under the FX chains you might want to use without worrying so much about the amp model in the HD500...
After you get a patch spun up in the HD500 that you like, copy it to another location and then remove all the 4 cable stuff and remove the FX Loop from the chain...Then pickout the PRE model that fits the tone you want...
Anyway, just a thought....oh yea, don't bother with dual tones unless you have 2 DT-50s...
Currently Being ModeratedAug 12, 2011 11:30 AM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
it's a pity that you haven't come back with any feedback to these hopefully valuable suggestions.
Where these suggestions somewhere helpful to you or did you already sold your DT50/HD500 rig (I don't hope so)
Life is a give and take ...
Currently Being ModeratedAug 23, 2011 5:43 PM (in response to wolbai)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Sorry I've not been back to give a well-earned nod to these excellent posts, I've had some family events that have kept me out of town for some time.
I've taken to going direct-in to the DT50 with some very satisfying results; like I said, I absolutely love the tone that box pumps out.
Given the great suggestions provided here, and your faith in the value of this combination, I do believe that it's premature for me to sell the gear and move on. I'll go down the list and give all of the advice a try and report back to all of you on my findings.
I want to say a hearty thanks to all of you for taking the time and making the effort to help me. It speaks very highly for you and I appreciate it immensely.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 27, 2011 6:35 PM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I must say I am glad I stumbled upon this posting. I was really close to spending 329 bucks on a dr. z attenuator had my bandmates come over and listen to see it they thought it would help in tone and they did not. I think the tone is pretty good honestly but my guitarist is just running 4 pedals (none are all on at the same time) into my spider jam on the clean channel and honestly sounds better than what I can come up with on the dt50/hd500 $2000 rig. Yes more versatile but not really better at all. We decided at the end of the day it sounded best guitar plugged straight into the amp in full power mode. I am really considering getting a small wattage tube amp 15-20 watts and a couple standard/boutique pedals. The number of possiblilities has been nice for recording my original tunes but in the band situation it just has not been worth the number of headaches or hours nay months (almost a year) of tweeking. Not saying others can't find it but I am having a rough time finding consistant tones that I am seriously impressed with. Sad thing is I have looked on ebay dt50s are not selling, I will certainly lose my butt on this.
But as I started off to say, I am glad I stumbled on this I have a few things to try....again anyway.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 27, 2011 9:05 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
Wow, it blows me away that you like the sound of a Spider Jam better than the HD/DT50 rig. Maybe the complexity of the rig is just not what you're looking for.
There are a number of great suggestions already posted, but if you've tried just using a "pre" model of a particular amp, say Bassman, in full power mode, using the default Combo or Stack Power amp setting and can't get a great basic tone, then either something is wrong with a part of your system, or your ears are very different than mine. What amps do you like and what are examples of the tones you are seeking? Maybe we can help, if you give us some guidelines.
I have never been happier with my setup, and I have vintage Fender, Marshall, Matchless, Groove Tube and other amps, and many boutique pedals. I can get a tone that is close to any of them, and has real tube amp feel, and NO digital coldness. The only thing I'm hoping for is a way to split Studio/Direct emulation through the 1/4 inch outputs while using Combo Power amp throught the Line6 Link connection for my accoustic guitar parts.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 9:50 AM (in response to gtrman100)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
its not that i like the spider jam better.... I think the spider jam distortions are less than adequate. but the clean tone with no effects and the guitarists stompboxes with his nice strat as a combination.
I think its the stompboxes vs. hd500 effects, I am sure I could get a decent clean tone with the hd/dt. He is relying on good quality stomps for lead and crunch tones and they sound damn good... just saying.
if i go another route that is probably what I would do get a low watt tube amp with tons of clean headroom and get a grand worth (read 4-5) of decent stomps and be done with it. perhaps keep the hd500 for direct recording... or learn to mic proper
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 12:21 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
If you're looking for tons of clean headroom, a low wattage amp won't give it to you. The whole point of higher wattage amps is that they give you headroom.If you're playing a 15-20 watt amp with an average efficiency speaker, playing with a normal rock band won't give you enough clean headroom to keep up with the drummer. It sounds like you'd need a 50 or higher watt tube amp. I'd be surprised if the 75 watt solid state Spider Jam would give enough headroom.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 12:25 PM (in response to gtrman100)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
trust me... JB has been trying for a while... so if he says it aint working for him i believe him :-)
it's really down to what you would be looking for in YOUR tone...
so although i agree that the combo is incredible.... its not what everyone is looking for.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 3:59 PM (in response to TheRealZap)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
thanks for the show of support Zap,
As for the spider jam, it has been keeping up with a fairly quiet drummer and the dt50 lowered to volume match plus bass player volume matching as well. FYI the other guitarists main amp is a peavy classic 30, he just keeps it at church for simplicity. The nice thing about the jam is the rca outs even if it didn't have the watts to keep up, it plugs right into your pa. I use it to record bass all the time for my home recordings, play acoustic occasionally too since I sold my acoustic amp a while back.
As far as low wattage amps go I think a 22 watt fender deluxe reverb would be heard without issue quiet well... may not be what is for me but i have heard them be really loud, and you can always mic your cab anyway. One thing I love about the dt40 is the direct out, man i love recording with that thing. Sounds great.
Don't mean to step on anyone's toes here just is good to let out what your thinking and feeling sometimes.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 4:06 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I've got a Deluxe Reverb RI with the 100 watt Jensen, and it is loud. but wouldn't have enough clean headroom for many rock gigs we play.(I did use it for a blues band i was in and it worked well). I can see if you're doing a worship gig 15-20 watts would be plenty. I was thinking of the typical club with a lousy PA(iow, the ones we play,lol!)
Currently Being ModeratedAug 28, 2011 6:56 PM (in response to gtrman100)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
we play for fun locally, all full time working professionals, husbands and fathers here. maybe 12 or so shows a year small gigs would not estimate over 200 people ever. I don't think i can do the bar thing again ..can't be lugging around gear at 3am anymore. I'll leave that to the young and those that make their living by the treble clef
Currently Being ModeratedSep 3, 2011 5:36 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
fyi I have been playing at the local guitar center going through the amps for about a hour and half every day for the past 4 days. In my price range I think the vox ac30 or egnater rebel 30 with 2x12 is the best amps for my playing style. they do have a vintage fender 75 that sounds great but needs work as seen when cranked and starts making noise. The mesa boogie transatlantic is pretty cool but in the end is more tweaking (due to more options) which is what i am trying to avoid. the L6 pedal and amp is up on ebay, no bids on amp yet... however i played through the front of the dt50 today with a couple single pedals direct in and the amp sounded so much better to me. If it don't sell this time around I may hold on to it and consider using it as a regular amp instead of with the hd pedal.
keep rocking it!
Currently Being ModeratedSep 6, 2011 8:02 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
fyi i purchased a mesa boogie transatlantic ta-30 combo as my new amp and have already purchased a xotic ac plus and a hardwire dl-8 delay/looper pedal. don't think i'll need much else for a while. I still have pod farm to add other effects when recording. hd500 has sold, playing through the dt50 while i wait for the new amp to arrive it sounds much better to me with a pedal in front and some reverb but the new amp is actually more flexible in itself and better power scaled to fit my needs (and yes more expensive).
Currently Being ModeratedOct 21, 2011 3:49 PM (in response to JB1973)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
You're where I'm at now. I've followed your adventures on this site for some time and I sympathize with your frustrations and your eventual decision to sell. The DT50 is far and away the nicest sounding amp (even with the master volume pulled out) that I have ever played, so it's not going anywhere for now. I use both topos I and III mostly and I just love them.
The HD has become a multi-effects pedal only, and in that role it's easy enough to configure and sounds great using the standard guitar input.
In retrospect I probably would have forgone the HD for some best of breed pedals, but I have no regrets with the DT50.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 9, 2012 3:04 PM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I thought I'd update everyone on where I'm at with this system. I think I've given it every chance to become my dream rig, but as of this writing I have both the POD and the DT 50 up for sale. I don't claim to have done everything correctly or that I understand the ins and outs of this system, but I sure have tried pretty hard over the course of the last year to achieve some depth of understanding and I've been frustrated from the ground up with this gear.
The tones I get are thin and wimpy and totally unsatisfactory regardless of the various configuration switches, parameter settings, etc. that I swizzle around on the POD. Yes, I've tried all of the suggestions, and many many other things, some stupid, some with some semblance of logic, all to no avail. At this point either I have a defective HD unit or I am a defective user and I can't say for sure which one it is, but I'm just sick of messing with it all. So it's out they go in favor of the Fender Twin Reverb I should have bought the first time around.
I just wanted to pop in again to this forum to let all the subject matter experts who chimed in to help me that I appreciate immensely the time they spent (and continue to spend) in helping me and many others get the most out of this gear. You guys rock!
Message was edited by: kevinwal - fixed some spelling
Currently Being ModeratedMay 11, 2012 4:30 AM (in response to kevinwal)Re: Holy Moses am I frustrated
I pretty much gave up too with the dream rig. I now gig with a bunch of quality pedals into the DT50 and 4x12. It's easy, does what what it should and sounds just grand. I wasted way too much time with the HD500 and now it sits at home in the studio where it really works.
Disturbingly, this whole reversion isn't isolated to just a few of us gigging musicians.
The DT50 however, remains the best head I have ever bought and used.