Jan 19, 2012 3:11 AM
DT50 voicings sounds differently than Pod HD500 pre-amps
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Mar 14, 2013 2:30 PM by
evilmikehoo 
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OK - I'm throwing myself somewhat to the wolves here LOL. I carried out some quite exhaustive tests myself a year ago (approx) to get to the bottom of this and what I did exactly was documented in the thread I'm trying to locate. The thread was either in this forum (POD HD) or DT25/DT50 forum. Some of the other L6 Experts did similar exercises - specifically Rowbi and Crusty_Old_Rocker - but independently. Given I have probably slept 365 nights and forgotten bits and pieces about exactly what I did, what follows now may not reflect the exact process I followed, but until I can pinpoint the thread(s) (there were two or three at least) I hope this helps your understanding.
The DT50 and the HDx00 series at the time had the relevant four PRE amp models embedded in the latest firmware that was current at the time and even though the POD HD500 and close relatives are currently at firmware version 1.40, the relevant four PRE amp models in both the POD and DT50 are still exactly the same in both devices.
It is vital that you compare like with like and that you set each device in exactly the same way at all times or comparisons are a complete waste of time.
From memory, here's what I did. I set up 4 basic test patches in my POD HD500 with each one using ONLY one of the four PRE amp models; the same ones that re used in the DT50.
In each of my repeated four A/B tests which were done by ear only I took care to ensure hat the DT50 was running in FULL power mode and that I set a maximum ceiling level using the amp's MASTER control. This level remained constant throughout ALL the tests.
The amp (DT-50) was the only amp used given the comparisons i made were simply between the PRE amp models in the amp and the equivalent PRE amp models in the HD500.
I also used a high quality XLR cable between the HD500 and the DT-50 for the L6 Link connection. You may read some reports on these forums about using different types of XLR cable and how audio quality is perceived to be better or worse depending on the type of cable. I am not going to comment on that as such, but at present Line 6's stance on this is that a good quality XLR cable is all that is required.
The rest of the test procedure was quite simple. I set the Drive, Bass, Mid, Treble, Volume to the 12 'o'clock position on the amp and with a standard Ibanez RG1570 Prestige guitar plugged into the front of the amp into the High input I took a close listen to a basic set of chords E - A - D - G - C - F etc strummed with a pick. The NFL settings and Class settings on the amp were set the same defaults as the HD500 would use.
Then I connected my HD500 to the amp by L6-Link with the same PRE amp model loaded as for the previous listening experience with the amp in stand-alone mode, and set the controls on the HD500 (by eye) to the same positions as I'd used on the DT-50 in stand-alone mode and played the same chords in the same way as the last test. I A/B'd this a few times to satisfy myself that things sounded the same. I then did the same kind of A/B test but by playing single notes - again until I was satisfied I was or wasn't hearing the same tones from both the DT-50 stand-alone and the HD500. Not satisfied with doing that on its own, I then adjusted the controls on the amp's front panel and on the HD500 so again they matched (I tried this in a few positions) and ran the A/B tests again.
Then I moved on to the second PRE amp model and repeated the same stuff I'd done for the first one. Then onto the other two PRE amp models.
It was as accurate a testing procedure as I could do at home without scientific testing instruments any more sophisticated than my own ears, so with the best will in the world my tests were somewhat subjective and based on my opinion. However, my ears are in pretty decent working order and from what I could hear, to the best of my ability I could not detect any noticeable differences between the DT-50's PRE amp models when compared to the same four PRE amp models as in the POD HD500's firmware (it would have almost certainly been f/w 1.21 as far as I can recall).
I know from reliable sources that the PRE models in both POD HDx00 and DT-50 at that time were absolutely identical. I have no reason to doubt that information. I believe the situation regarding the PRE amp models in both the DT-xx amps and the POD HD series remain identical at this time.
At the end of the day you need to trust your ears and make your own judgement with your own POD and your own DT-xx, but from where I was sitting a year ago and where I am sitting now, the HD500's PRE settings and the DT-50 sound identical with my gear.
The DT-25 doesn't use the same PRE models as the DT-50 in total. One is different (I'll have to check which one if you need to know - it is documented in the DT-25/DT-50 forum and elsewhere).
With some minor differences in the procedure, I believe both Rowbi and Crusty_Old_Rocker came to the same conclusions as I did. When some users who had been having exactly the same doubts as highlighted in this thread and who were quite convinced that the HDx00 did not sound the same as the DT-50 on its own, conducted similar tests to ours, their understanding improved and they agreed that their PODx00 and DT-50 stand-alone did sound the same.
I would urge anyone having doubts to try some tests for themselves, but on as level a playing field as possible so that you are indeed comparing apples with apples.
If you still believe after that, that there are differences in sound, I won't necessarily be able to explain why that is so, but I'm happy to try to a point
Nick
EDIT: I found the missing thread here: http://line6.com/support/thread/55012?start=0&tstart=90
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I didn't realise eloquence was a strength I possessed LOL, but yeah to some extent you are dead right.
Our ears and what they tell us are ultimately the best instruments we could hope for, but a little help from some actual electronic instruments and analysers can support what we say we are hearing and although I spent a good many hours on this it is very hard to say definitively that 'my ears are telling me there's no difference so there is absolutely no difference that anyone else could hear'. All I can say with any absolute conviction is that I cannot detect any difference.
When I can't hear any difference, I'm afraid life's too short to take it to the N'th degree. A guitar amp has never and will never be a hi-fi amplifier, so if my ears say to me that the POD PRE's sound the same as the DT-50 PRE's then really that has to be good enough for me as I want/need to get on with the business of making music rather than being too pernickety. And that's not to make light of the need to know that the PRE's in both devices are delivering the same thing to the power amp, but you do have to draw a line somewhere.
But as I said, my POD HD500 PRE's sound identical to my DT-50 PRE's to my ears and that is good enough for me
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Exactly my experience! I've done DEEP EDITING with the POD HD connected via L6 Link and VDI to JTV Variax. I've spent hours going back and forth between different setups, reading the manuals, checking the forums, trying customtone presets, etc. etc. and it shouldn't be this hard to get a decent tube sound happening. Everything from the HD sounds cold, stiff and very digital (2-dimmensional). I've played with the Channel Volume, Master Volume on the amp, Mixer panning and volume, etc. etc. Yeah, I can get it LOUDER but I can't add back the missing dynamics and tube-like sound that is inherent with the amp. Then, I take the HD out of the equation and plug a 1/4-inch direct into my DT25 head and there it is...GREAT TUBE TONE! WTF?! I don't believe these are the same signal chains at all, sorry. The DT25 is doing SOMETHING that the HD500 cannot replicate and it's frustrating because I want those options in the HD500 and paid over $1300 for this rig
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Awww maaaan, I have to take it back now
After re-flashing the firmware (by first, removing EVERY plug except the USB cable) two times (something was really wrong), installing the most recent driver and getting over some of the steep learning curve (especially conerning the gain staging and dual "INPUT SOURCE" setup), I am actually VERY satisfied now. In fact, this combination (DT25 + POD HD500) sounds AMAZING! It might be the best rig I have ever owned!! I am able to get wondeful tones from nearly ALL of the pres. I don't know what was happening before but...I LOVE THIS SETUP!!! 
Everything seems to sound and work the way I expected it would 
MeAmBobbo's PodHD Guide was VERY helpful to me in getting this all sorted out. For those who are frustrated, don't give up until you read through his sections about "harsh tone' and "gain staging".
All the best,
Rich
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kisscool82,
1. I have a different amp and cab; my DT25 head is hooked up to a Vox 2x12 cabinet loaded with 80-watt Celestion "Neo Dog" speakers. The DT25 is a different sounding amp altogether and to my ears, sounds better than the DT50. It breaks up quicker (naturally, it is a lower-wattage amp) and it's easier to get the power tubes involved to influence the tone more without bringing down the house. So, an important difference to note there!
2. My HD500 did not successfully take the first, or even the second flash of current firmware. We aren't talking simple, "sterile" or "2-dimensional" tones here. We are talking, digital clipping and harsh nasties on nearly EVERY setting. The high end was piercing and the tones were mostly unusable. The third time I flashed the unit I unplugged EVERYTHING (S/PDIF, AES cable, MIDI cable, etc.) except for the USB cable and it was a night and day improvement
3. The MOST important thing is to get the gain staging right and it's not (necessarily) set up, out of the box for that. It seems to be set up for dual input, stereo rigs. So, first I go to the mixer, and set Path A to MUTE and Path B to center (pan) and 0db (unity gain). Then, I go to "INPUT SOURCE" and make sure "Guitar" or "Variax" is selected on input one and something that is not being used, like "Aux" for input two. The default "Same" setting for the second input is erroneous and can cause digital clipping because it multiplies the signal. The same is true for setting both inputs to "Guitar". People may prefer the increased loudness of doubling these inputs but further down the signal chain, they are setting themselves up for digital clipping. Make sense? This is VERY important to get right
4. Finally, I have found that the "Channel Volume" or "CH VOL" is the most transparent (having the least impact on tone). Additionally, I found that to really wake the amp up and get the whole tube thang happenin', you need to get those power tubes involved. For the DT25, it means setting the MASTER VOLUME at 1 o'clock, which is where I leave it. I start with the channel volume at zero and turn it up to the desired listening volume. "Drive" and preamp volume are handled separately for the specific tone(s) I am going for.
That's the best I can offer you. These things combined have gotten me to the tone nirvana I was hoping for. No, it isn't exactly like running all of these tube amps in real life but it is DAMN close and good 'nuff for me
I hope you get it all sorted out and wish you the best in achieving the tones you are hoping for
Rich
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