Mar 27, 2011 1:04 AM
4 cable method problem - please help!
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Hi guys,
This is my first post on here. Up until a few months ago I was an M13 user, and have been a fan of L6 gear since the days of the POD 2.0.
Anyhow, recently I had the chance to swap the M13 for an HD500, and I figured, why not? I didn't tweak on the fly as much as I thought I would with the M13, and a built-in expression pedal and some amp models to play with seemed to be just a bonus.
I've always used the 4-cable method with my M13 and Marshall Vintage Modern, so I can use the overdrive tones from my amp with the M-series effects.
Here's my problem - I'd set up a couple of such patches with the HD500 and my amp, so I could switch in phase, delay, chorus etc. I'd found that the levels sounded best with the HD's Master on full, and then with the HD FX loop on its default settings.
This was all good until I took my setup to band practice, and found that it was emitting a loud background noise, kinda like microphonics, a sort of "eeeeee". I just can't figure out why it suddenly started doing that. This seems to be related to the HD's Master - past 12 o'clock the noise starts.
Another problem that arose was that the overdrive sound from my amp when the HD's FX loop was engaged was suddenly softer, weak and far less gainy than it should be. This makes me think it is a levels problem - but I can't figure out why! My amp can take both line and amp level signals through its loop, and I'd had it set up all fine.
I'm stumped, and I have two big gigs coming up this weekend where I'd like to use the HD.... Starting to get a little worried.
Things I have tried:
# Patching the amp's effects loop - seems to be working fine and levels/tone are as they should be.
# Tested all the cables used in the 4-cable set up - all seem fine.
# Recently flashed memory with 1.22.
# Setting up a blank patch with only HD FX loop engaged -still get the same problem of "eeeee" noise and weak tone.
# Various combinations of line or amp levels in the I/O, still the same.
Might I have screwed something up while experimenting with the HD? I'm at my wits end. I'm pretty experienced with setting up 4-cable method, so I don't think it's the basic setup that is wrong.
Thanks in advance for your help!!
Hi Slash-ed
Welcome to the forum.
OK - from your description it immediately seems to suggest that something is amiss in your HD500 signal chain. Could you perhaps upload a patch here by using HD500 Edit to select and extract the patch to your computer and then use the Attach files section in the Post editing window to Browse and attach the file?
In the meantime though as a new user to the HD500 and having come from the M13 (I have both too) it's entirely possible you may have missed some things, so taking a best guess at what those might be, here's some ideas which might help:
The M13 is purely an FX modeller; the HD500 is an FX modeller AND an amp and cab modeller
In 2 cable configuration, you would ideally normally use your guitar amp's real power amp section and real speaker cabinet to amplify your signal chain from the HD500 which would normally contain an amp model from the 16 PRE amp models available rather than from the 16 FULL amp models.
In 2CM you could of course use FULL amp models with cabinet emulation to feed a FRFR system or PA, but when using a standard guitar amp - particularly a valve amp with valve output stage the PRE models are designed to run the power amp section in the same way as the real pre-amp section would - particularly with an amp like the Line 6 DT50
In 4 cable Method (4CM) configuration, you wouldn't normally want to use any amp modelling as you are using the amp's real pre-amp and also its real power amp section plus its real speaker cabinet. So normally you'd simply switch off amp modelling by selecting NO AMP on a per preset basis.
Your 4CM configuration would normally be something like this:
HD500 'virtual' signal chain:
Wah > Screamer > EQ > FX Loop > NO AMP/Cab > Delay > Chorus > Reverb (for example)
Physical signal chain:
Guitar > HD500 Guitar Input
HD500 FX Send > Guitar Amp front input
Gutar Amp serial FX loop Send > HD500 L/Mono FX Return
HD500 1/4" Out (just use one and it doesn't matter which one) > Guitar Amp serial FX loop Return
Slider switch positions on the POD HD500:
Rear LINE/STOMP - set to STOMP in 4CM
Top face, left of expression pedal:
GUITAR IN, PAD/NORMAL: set to NORMAL unless you have extremely hot pickups in your guitar
XLR: GROUND/LIFT: only affects XLR outputs, set to GROUND first and if when using XLR outs you encounter ground-loop hum switch to LIFT as necessary
1/4" OUT LINE/AMP; set to LINE in 4CM as a LINE level signal is required to give sufficient level to the power amp stage of your amp
HD500 Output Mode: set this according to whatever amplification system you are driving:
PA, Powered Cabs, nearfield monitors or other FRFR - set to STUDIO/DIRECT
Combo Front input: COMBO FRONT
Combo Power Amp (or serial FX Return): COMBO PWR AMP
Amp head and 4x12 Front input: STACK FRONT
Amp head and 4x12 Power Amp (or serial FX Return); STACK PWR AMP
In 4CM - set your amp's pre-amp and tone stack settings as normal; set your MASTER VOLUME settings initially on the quieter side of normal to avoid getting your head knocked off by a potential sudden burst of feedback; set the HD500's MASTER control at about 10 o'clock to start with and turn it up in conjuction with turning up the amp's master volume until you have a suitably loud signal coming through the amp's speakers.
The HD500 FX loop should be OK at its default settings, ie: SEND = 100%, RETURN = 0.00% (this gives a normal return level - only turn it up if there is a noticeable difference in overall level from the amp without the HD500 in its loop and when the HD500 is present in the amp's loop; MIX = 100%
Set up correctly, you should not experience abnormal feedback. Your amp MUST have a serial FX loop or a parallel loop that can be made into a serial loop with an on-board mix control that's set to 100% wet.
In 4CM you would normally place any 'gainy' type FX before the HD500's FX loop so that these would feed the pre-amp section of your amp, and then any 'clean' type FX (reverb/delay/modulation etc...) after the HD500's FX loop so that they are positioned in between your amp's pre-amp and its power amp.
In practical everyday use, with a modeller like the POD HD500 although I can see why some users might desperately need to use the sound of their own host amp at times as well as the sounds of other amps as modelled by the HD500, it is rarely necessary for me personally to bother with 4CM as I can get all the sounds I actually need from the HD500 to my amp in 2CM from cleans, to blues, to country, to classic rock, heavy rock and metal. Yes - it does seem like a bit of a waste sometimes to have a perfectly fantastic Marshall JVM head that's only being used for its power amp section, but the HD500 with a Marshall PRE model feeding the Marshall power amp and Marshall 4x12 cab sounds.... well just like a Marshall should sound LOL, plus I have the advantage of then being able to swap to a Fender PRE model to get very close to the sound of a Fender Twin from the Marshall head and cab. When I use the DT50 with L6-Link the HD500 IS the DT50's pre amp and that is the best partner for the HD500 I've experienced and it does sound like a proper Marshall or a proper Fender Twin or whatever in my opinion. I mainly use the HD500 and DT50 but sometimes I may decide to use a different amp as I have several at hand.
Hope that helps a bit ![]()
regards
Nick
My suggestion is to give it up. I will always sound weak and it will suck sould out of you amp in 4CM.I have spend 2 month now on trying to do every setting, every suggestion, but all was pointless.Stay with your standar pedal board you will get more pleasing tones out of it or get your M13 back.This all in obe box things never worked and as I have just found out it will never work.Sorry for not optimistic message, but this is my experience.
My set up is:
Amp: Blackstar HT40 Club Combo
Guitar - Ibanez RG550EX(2002) H-S-H, Bare Knuckle Miracle Man, Dimarzio Area 51, Seymour Duncan SH-2
Cables: EA Lyrics in front of the amp and in the loop Klotz
Headphones: Sennheiser HD 280 Pro
Thanks but I actually discovered I screwed up the 4-cm connections. D'oh, retard me - and I've done it hundreds of times before!
slash-ed wrote:
Thanks but I actually discovered I screwed up the 4-cm connections. D'oh, retard me - and I've done it hundreds of times before!
Ha ha. Yes - I've done similar stuff before too. Glad you worked it out.
As long as you're not experiencing any tone suck - and you shouldn't do to any noticeable degree I have to say, go for it (of course a lot depends on the amp you're working with and the quality of cables). Have fun and enjoy.
Nick
Coming back to this thread (I've had a little search but couldn't find the answer) - I am actually experiencing a noticeable degree of tone suck. The bottom end of my amp (Marshall Vintage Modern) sounds very muffled when overdriven, compared to when I was using the M13 with 4cm.
I think it may still be a levels thing - what settings would you recommend to reduce the "Send" parameter on the FX Loop so that it effectively goes -14dB from line level signal (which is the setting I'm using for all the outs from the HD500)?
Hi
Well as I said in my first reply, I don't tend to use 4CM with the HD500 as - particularly with a Marshall sound I simply just need to use a Marshall PRE model with one of my Marshall heads and cabs with the HD500 going in via the amp's FX Return and I just turn Cab modelling off in the HD500 and let the Marshall cab handle that side of things. It works exceptionally well IME. I use the Marshall head this way and I use the DT50 this way (except I go in via L6 Link) - and I do it with a real Marshall amp so that I have the option of pretty darned realistic Marshall tone PLUS a variety of other tones based on the other PRE models in the HD500. I really don't feel the need to use the Marshall's own pre-amp at all even though it does sound exceptionally good in my JVM 205H and I do love the sound of that amp in stand-alone mode
There's lots of things that need to be set up correctly when using the 4CM.
STOMP/LINE on the back = STOMP
AMP/LINE for the 1/4" out = LINE
Output Mode = Stack Pwr Amp OR Combo Pwr Amp
FX Loop Mix Control on the amp = 100% WET
HD500 Amp/Cab Modelling = NONE
HD500 FX SEND = default - normally that is
HD500 FX RETURN = default
HD500 FX LOOP MIX = 100%
Try the FX Loop level button if your amp has one - set to +4dB rather than -10dB
This shouldn't sound at all mushy and you should experience minimal tone suck
It's entirely possible too that your amp may not be entirely suitable for getting the best from the HD500 when used in 4CM mode - not all amps will fit the bill in this respect., but I would have thought with your amp that you should get a perfectly acceptable tone. Check the different output modes on the HD500, These are normally set to work properly with the various amp types, but there's no rule that says you have to use Combo Pwr Amp with a combo power amp if Studio/Direct sounds better to you (I would personally expect Studio/Direct to sound pretty horrible through a guitar amp's power amp, but.....
). If you are using 4CM, I would really expect the HD500 mode to work best with Combo Pwr Amp or Stack Pwr Amp and NOT Combo Front or Stack Front.
Personally, in your shoes, I'd try 2CM with the Brit J--800 PRE modeland compare that with the normal tone direct from your amp with no HD500 connected. I would expect you to be able to get very very close to the sound of your amp - I may be wrong as my Marshall JVM is pretty close anyway to the JCM800.
Nick
slash-ed wrote:
Thanks but I actually discovered I screwed up the 4-cm connections. D'oh, retard me - and I've done it hundreds of times before!
I did this the other week at church. I though I had a microphonic tube. Turns out I swapped the cables for return and front input on the amp. I was about to reply to you when I saw you'd already found the problem.
ffooxx wrote:
My suggestion is to give it up. I will always sound weak and it will suck sould out of you amp in 4CM.I have spend 2 month now on trying to do every setting, every suggestion, but all was pointless....
I must be doing something instinctively to make it always work well for me, because I don't understand all the 4CM problems people are having. I've used the HD500, M13, GT-10, GT-Pro, and Axe-Fx Ultra in 4CM with a variety of amps like: Marshall JVM410, TSL100, Boogie MkV, Fryette Sig:X, Spider Valve HD100, DT50. My setup of 4CM has never been anything other than accepting the default setting for the unit's effects loop. You might have to play with the output level from the modeler a bit to get it up to the same level the amp was without being in the loop, but that's it. Oh, and making sure you're using a serial effects loop on the amp. But other than those two things, it should be dead simple.
Blackstar HT40 has a serial effect ;oo which is 100% of the signal goes trou it and this is it, you need to fiddle around mixer, input levels, loop levels, true bypas boxes to miss and mach things etc.. spend counless hour on it and the results we not good at all at least for me, it was not bad (I think usable), but not as great as tradition stompboxes.But I have found the cure for that and that is Digitech RP1000 it works just excellent and you do not notice any device to be connected to the amp.I do not use the amp modeling anyway so it is my FX unit.
Hi
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to use the four cable method with a Marshall 210c? Not sure if this was the right way to post this question so my apologies for any stupidity.I cant figure out wich sent and return jacks to use and what settings. Thanks for any help
Check out this discussion starting at Nick Mattocks' post:
http://line6.com/support/message/314638#314638
We discussed some issues regarding levels, but you should still be able to get it working ok if you follow Nick's post and then read Jim Reynolds' follow-ups.
+1 Gregr
So happens I have a JVM too and have a specific setup over on the JVM Forum, based on what is posted on this site.
finally thank you so much
looks like i will be joining that forum but man the 4cm sure seems in depth does this utilize the most out of the jvm and the hd 500
If you want to use the pre-amps on your JVM to their best effect (and they are worth it) then yes, 4CM is worth it. It is the only way to put the effects where you want them, If you want to understand why this is then read this post here --> http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2523.
Yes,its a pain in the back end to set up initially and get your head round but once it is setup it is far better than other methods of connecting and takes no more time than a good pedalboard setup. Like all things, the more time you invest in figuring it out, the more you get from it.
All this assumes that you are not using modelled amps from your HD exclusively. If this is the case then just plug the HD directly into the FX Loop on your JVM. This is simpler but means you cannot use your JVM Preamps.
If you are worried about messing things up with your amp and HD patches: don't be;. Just make sure that you use new patches on your HD when you create your 4CM sounds ... which you will need to do yourself. The amps setup will not really be affected.
Thanks you really clarified a lot for me im gonna give it a shot your help is greatley apprecated . some where there was a guy either on here or the jvm site that had some cool 4cm patches like van halen you couldnt download them but he had pictures posted do you know how to get ahold of those?Also how do I join the jvm site?
Thanks Aaron
Sorry, don't know anything about the Van Halen patches. Try Meambobbo's patches here --> http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneDemo/. On the JVM Forum - just register and (if I remember) they email you shortly after. It's a very good forum, not directly aligned to Marshall. Highly recommended if you want to get the best out of your JVM.
Registration link
Thanks again and those where the ones i was looking for awsome.Also when yo want to use a modelled preamp in place of the jvm you say turn off the effecs loop is that on the amp or the hd
On the HD. If you think about it: the amps' preamp is contained within the FX loop of the HD. If you turn of the HD loop then you get rid of the amplifiers preamp and are left with whatever you have configured on the Pod.
jungjung wrote:
Thanks again and those where the ones i was looking for awsome.Also when yo want to use a modelled preamp in place of the jvm you say turn off the effecs loop is that on the amp or the hd
If you have tails turned on, then you need to remove the loop from the patch altogether or you'll still hear output or noise from your amp.
This is good advice from Karl. Alternatively you can go into system options and set 'Trails = Off' for the patch.
In general though, you would not include an FX Loop block in any patch where you wanted to use a modelled amp ... unless you wanted to jump between or blend the modelled and real preamps and that is a whole new world of pleasure/pain!!
Ok tried it and I love it. awsome .onley thing is when I am using a modeled preamp I cant get any sound out of the amp if the fx loop switch is off but when its on everything still sounds awsome I dont understand this is there somithing im missing.
No, that is correct. For a modelled patch you still need the amp FX Loop turned on. On the HD however, the FX Loop block can be removed from the patch.
The last cable from the 4CM is from the output of the HD to the FX Return on the amp ... i.e. straight into the power amp. This is needed in all cases so therefore the amp loop must be turned on.
Ah ok got it.You know I was terrified of doing this it sounded so in depth as I had attemted it a couple of other times with bad results But the way you broke it down was awsome and Im so glad I did it. Im having a blast being able to model amps and use the jvms preamp with fx and being able to switch without connecting and disconecting cables.I am now understanding how this works and why.Thanks a million.But what are trails?
4CM is great once you have got your head round it and it is working well. Glad to hear that you have it working well ![]()
'Trails': If you have trails turned on then the HD FX Loop Return stays active even when the FX Loop is turned off. This is useful when you have an effect like a delay Stompbox in the HD Loop which you may want to turn off but have the remaining repeats heard.
If you turn the trails off then the FX Return gets turned off too. This is normally desirable for 4CM - particularly when you are using a modelled amp as you dont want noise from a real pre-amp leaking into you modelled tone. e.g. the JVM has some VERY high gain channels that leave a constant hiss in my tone when I do not turn the trails off.
Ok how do i turn that off. Although im not getting any unwanted noise
system options and set 'Trails = Off' for the patch.
Thank you Hope I can help you guys sometime
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