Jun 17, 2012 9:21 AM
Recommended Speech Filter to eliminate wind noise? Also - XD-V70L dropout issue
-
Like (0)
Hi All,
First of all, let me describe my setup.
It consist of (3) XD-V70. Two lavs & one handheld.
Recently upgraded all my XD-V70's to RF2.
All connect to a Rane MLM 42S, then to a Bose L1 compact.
They typically work great except for a couple of issues.
1) Wind noise.
Even with wind screen on, when using to mic officiant & groom (for outdoor
wedding ceremonies) wind noise is frequently an issue.
I've tried using a bigger wind screen
(that I had left over from an old Shure PGX lavs), which didn't help much.
Best results I've gotten have been to cut the lows out entirely. Was wondering
if any of the bulit-in EQ filter models, specifically any of the Speech Filters,
would give me better results.
Also, while I'm familiar with low-pass & high-pass filtering, not sure
what the various "cut" filters do (e.g. high-cut, etc). Can someone explain
(in realtively simple terms)?
2) Drop outs.
From time to time, I'll experience drop-outs on one of the lavs, usually the groom.
I've brought up the issue (here on the forum) in the past, and recommendation was to get some P180
antennas to improve reception.
Well I've gone ahead and bought a pair. I mount them on boom mic stands.
I have them raisied at 8-9 feet high. But at yesterday's ceremony, I still had
some drop outs. Even though I had a clear line of sight to groom, who was
less than 100 feet away.
Receiver showed fully battery strength, but signal meter would bounce around
from full strength, down to nothing, and then back to full.
Any ideas?
Hello again, djronh1...
Your Rane MLM 42S and L1 form a really compact and versatile rig for intimate events. Top quality gear throughout !
To business: ...I'll deal with the the latter issue (and possibly the more serious, given the history of your recent cash outlay) first. A couple of thoughts:
As I never use more than nine channels, I've taken to almost always using RF1 by dint of resolving (very rare) WiFi and Bluetooth issues through physical separation. "Bluetoothers" and "WiFiers" seem to blog on quite happily when they're more than a yard (metre) or so away from my transmitters. Equally, they don't bother me, so long as they are at least a yard (metre) away from my receiving antennae.
You're probably doing all of what I'm about to suggest anyway, but it's best if you can have both P180 paddles "seeing" the transmitters' "performance area" from different angles. In other words one from "in front" or "behind" the performers, with its "mate" picking up from one or other "side", ...one also being handspan or so higher than the other. This helps maintain RF "line of sight" around human bodies and other RF absorbers or reflectors.
Please excuse my repeating that, unlike the "log periodic" paddles of other makers' systems, which have their "spines" aimed ("rifle-style") at the transmitters, Line 6's P180 "patch" arrays must have their "flat plate" sides (opposite the cable-compensating "Gain" switch) facing the "performance area".
Upgrading the software has given you access to the "expanding ears" RF measurement display around the letters "A" and "B" on the main screen of your receivers. These indicate the actual signal being captured by their respective antennae and greatly help the optimisation of antenna locations for solid coverage.
Also, I tend to do a quick receiver check of the "Set Up/Function 2/Channel Scan" screen before each gig so as to be aware of any RF that may have just "walked in".
In my experience, RF1 has been pretty much "bulletproof", with typically well over a hundred metres (300ft) of trouble-free range at high transmitter power. By far the majority of my work is performed with XDV transmitters on the "Battery Saver" lower power setting.
Now, wind noise is an entirely different challenge.
I know of NO directional lavalier that performs well in this regard. Omnis perform much better, but are useless for what you and I do ...as there's no way we can achieve sufficient gain before feedback.
Spend a few hundred bucks on a top-quality directional lavalier and all you may achieve is a marginal improvement in handling noise and/or the "open-ness" of high frequencies, ...with the same horrible racket from breeze blasting the "back-rejecting" ports on the body of the mic, just like it does with Line 6's.
The best results I've had in this regard have involved very few dollars indeed. I simply stretch a second, bulkier "foamy" over the one included with Line 6's lavalier. Something like these:
Don't bother spending more money (a lot more) on expensive "furry" screens such as those I have from Rode and Rycote. For this application, they seem to yield almost no improvement over my "double foamy" arrangement. (They have, however, proved fabulous for recording with omnidirectional lavaliers.)
Given that back-port wind racket is inevitable with directional lavaliers, maybe it's time for some good news.
A little while ago I successfully PA'd a gusty gathering with my "double-foamied" Line 6 lavaliers, ...the only untoward audio artefact being a slight "raspy" wind-induced "gargle" from gusts just short of being strong enough to knock the participants off their feet.
All commented on the clarity with which proceedings were heard, without a single reference being made to wind noise. As their origin was only too obvious, the minor audio blemishes caused no distress whatsoever, unlike the loss of hats, flowers and pretty much anything that wasn't tightly secured.
(I believe they're still looking for one of the lighter guests...) ![]()
How? ...Well, as you suspected:
Some additional improvement may (hypothetically) be possible via headworn mics, but the very nature of the event I'm talking about (and probably yours) pretty much rules out personal intrusion to that extent.
From my point of view, (and more importantly, that of my clients) this great outcome would have either been altogether unattainable or prohibitively expensive ...without the benefit of Line 6's inbuilt processing.
I know of no other wireless gear that has anything like it.
All sounds good.
I just ordered the windscreens you mentioned (via the Amazon link).
Althought the size (of just 1/8" diameter) seems kinda small, but I
assume your using them successfully, so that's good enoguh for me.
RonMarton wrote:
You're probably doing all of what I'm about to suggest anyway, but it's best if you can have both P180 paddles "seeing" the transmitters' "performance area" from different angles. In other words one from "in front" or "behind" the performers, with its "mate" picking up from one or other "side", ...one also being handspan or so higher than the other. This helps maintain RF "line of sight" around human bodies and other RF absorbers or reflectors.
BTW - While I'll be able to spread the placement of my P180 a bit wider, I doubt I'll ever have option to be able to place them both in front of & behind (groom/officiant), since I only have approx. 25 ft of cable per antenna, and am usually 50-100 ft away from cermony location. Plus, isn't the whole purpose of going wireless to eliminate/reduce cable runs
?!
Lastly, I'm a bit suprised to hear that RF2 reception is actually LESS robust that RF1. I'll defintely try the RF1 setting for this weekend's ceremony.
Thanks again,
Ron
Yes ... RF1 transmits over 4 frequencies and RF2 transmits over 2 frequencies. Because there are fewer frequencies you can better position them to avoid interfering with Wi-Fi channels, but you must scan before assigning Line 6 channels to determine which channels are available.
Hello again, Ron...
Just to clarify, ...the four-frequency diversity RF1 scheme is the biggest bully in the whole WiFi/Bluetooth school playground and loves a fight.
His younger two-frequency diversity brother, RF2, is more agile and versatile. He's much better at playing with the others, but occasionally gets stomped on, especially if it's crowded.
With the P180 paddles, I didn't mean that they need to be all the way behind (or in front of, or off to one side of) proceedings. As you so rightly say, cabling those sorts of distances is hardly "wireless" ! ![]()
I was trying to give a geographic "image" to help visualise the "aiming towards a right-angled, one higher, one lower" deployment that works best for diversity reception, as I've often seen antennae rigged for well-intentioned "neatness" and "symmetry" at the expense of effective signal capture.
Regarding cheap "foamies" for lavaliers, the next size up that are generally available have quarter-inch "holes" for the mics. While they're more easy to slide over the top of Line 6's windscreens, I've found the resulting larger outside diameter more prone to "catching" clothing, thereby generating clothing-rustle "scraping" noises. (The bigger "pompom" is also more likely to fall off, the whole assembly being a looser fit.)
With the smaller generic ones, I've found the best technique is to first stretch them by placing them over the closed jaws of long-nosed pliers and very gently easing them open.
That allows the generic windscreen to shrink down over the capsule, creating a very snug fit that can be stretched to cover the full area of the mic's back-rejection grilles. I then repeat the process to similarly stretch Line 6's original windscreen so as to form an equally snug outer layer easing it all the way down over the generic.
It's fiddly and (as I indicated earlier) I know of nothing that will totally prevent gusty wind from making some racket via a directional lavalier's back-ports. Line 6's unique processing then "cleans it up", making directional lavaliers "PA-able" in conditions for which they were never intended.
I can also report that my eight Line 6 directional lavaliers have been very succesfully operating like this for nearly six months now, with no windsocks having fallen off.
Amazing for a mic that (aside from sounding better than many) is roughly half or one-third the price of anything else that's as tough.
Message was edited by: RonMarton
djronh1 wrote:
Plus, isn't the whole purpose of going wireless to eliminate/reduce cable runs
?!
I suspect (the other) Ron may disagree with me on this one but to my mind, the answer to that is a categoric no. In circumstances where a wire is completely impracticable, for example a singer who runs around a lot or the cast of a musical, then wireless is the only way to go. But a wire is cheaper, more reliable, better sounding and easier to use than even the best wireless system in the world.
You can send audio down hundreds of meters of cable without any problems at all. Sending RF through the air and down antennae cable is rather more problematic. Why not just set up your receivers close to the action and run audio cables the rest of the way to the desk? Presumably you're running audio cables back to the speakers anyway so it's no additional work. Despite being able to cover great distances, RF will always be more reliable over shorter distances. Most of the time it'll be fine over longer distances but in that one awkward venue that we've all encountered from time to time, it just won't work. I need it to work every time without fail so eliminating every possible point of failure is the way to go. When you're dealing with 20+ channels of wireless for a musical, the last thing you need to be worrying about is whether your wireless is going to start dropping out.
I'll now hand over the (wired) mic to Mr Marton for a different point of view ![]()
Sorry to disappoint you, Sheriton...
But I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've just posted ! ![]()
Indeed, the "other Ron" will attest that the substance of my earlier advice to a "third Ron" (Folse) is almost exactly congruent with yours.
As you'll see towards the end of djronh1's earlier discussion, here: http://line6.com/support/message/375859#375859 ...it focusses on finding better placement for his receiving gear, before any contemplation of additional expenditure for wiring and/or plate antennae.
It just so happens that, (for most, but not all, of my jobs) my "bump-in, bump-out, just add water and stir" applications are brilliantly fulfilled by flinging a length of Cat.6 from F.O.H. mixer to powered speakers and then relying on nine of Line 6's CD-quality RF channels for wirelessly acquiring the bulk of my source signals.
My operating like that in NO way negates your and my unequivocal preference for acquiring from the right mic, in the right place, ...coming down a piece of balanced, shielded and correctly terminated ...cable.
As you've so accurately expressed, the immutable "inverse square law" is fundamental to RF propagation and reception: ...halve the distance, receive four times the captured radiation.
"Ye canna deny the laws of physics, Captain !"
Now, stand by to deploy the force field...
Thanks dboomer & RonMarton for the tips & clarifications.
But can either of you answer the remaining portion of my original question/post?
Also, while I'm familiar with low-pass & high-pass filtering, not sure
what the various "cut" filters do (e.g. high-cut, etc). Can someone explain
(in realtively simple terms)?
Would any of the other SF settings be useable for my situtation?
What would be pros/cons of the other (SF1-SF5 vs SF6) available?
Look up "Filter" in this, Ron...
http://www.mackie.com/pdf/glossary.pdf
Although this is the best "non-geek plain English" guide to audio terms that I've seen, (the one I recommend to all my trainees) my invariable advice is that the best way to learn is by "playing", ...and playing should always be fun.
Audio's like sex, if it isn't fun, you're not doing it properly !
Accordingly, you should set aside some time to play.
Arrange to have the XL output of one of your XD-V receivers plugged into any mixer with a headphone output, plug in a headset, fire up a transmitter and have a listen.
Try the various mic models of your handheld, the various filters of your beltpacks and the dynamic filter settings at the receiver.
Actual listening will teach you vastly more than any description, glossary or manual. You'll also find that you retain a lot more than from boring study.
To guarantee consolidation of this knowledge, arrange to have sex.
(It works for me...)
Sorry ... I missed that.
low-pass is the same as high -cut ... it allows the lows below the selected frequency to pass and/or cuts off the highs above that point.
high-pass = low cut ... same thing but backwards.
Basically you want to cut off a mic from going any lower than the lowest frequency you actually need to help eliminate noise from footfall and hum. It depends on the actual construction of the filter but generally you should cut at about 100Hz when singing or maybe a bit above for speech. Just try the filters and decide by ear. If you hear them working you have probably selected one too extreme and should go one lighter.
Just completed another weekend, and implemented all the suggestions:
1) I switched back to RF1
2) Repositioned my P180 so the each faced my receivers, but from different angles
3) Double windscreen wrapped my lavs
4) Used "talk" filter setting on receiver
5) Also tried various SF settings on body pack.
The wind noise was totaly under control, thanks RonMarton.
After playing with the different filter setting, I ended up using the "no filter" on my transmitters, but did
keep the "talk" filter on my receivers.
Unfortunately though, my dropout problem (on the groom mic) returned .. UGH!!
Given that I had changed all systems to lower channel & back to RF1 and only the same one system (the groom's)
is experience the dropout, I'm starting to think it the transmitter.
Any ideas?
BTW - I make sure to always have fresh Energizer Lithium batteries in all my transmitters. I even bought a stand alone ZTS
pulse load battery tester awhile back (to ensure batteries were good).
I just opened a support ticket, and I'm awaiting a reply.
Luckily I have a Relay G50 w/ body pack that I can use for my lav (in case I need to ship it back to Line 6).
That's truly weird, Ron...
Although the fact that you've independently chosen my favoured (if more expensive) option of forgoing accurate battery metering to gain a guaranteed day's work from a pair of lithiums did raise a smile, ...the dropout bugbear certainly didn't.
As you will certainly have followed the previously discussed DonB/RonM "dictum" of checking for "foreign" RF prior to allocating channels and the beltpack in question will have been on its higher power setting, your suspicion of poor propagation from a given beltpack seems pretty right.
Nevertheless, from a "hardware" standpoint, I feel it's most unlikely that the transmitter's actually radiating a "Battery Saving" 3.3mW of RF while indicating that it's set for 10mW. Also, given the nature of its minaturised construction, you'd think that a TBP12's RF output stage would either function properly or not at all, ...with any internal transmitting antenna fault immediately yielding critically low RF indications at its receiver.
To my mind, that leaves just two further avenues of investigation:
First off, I'd suggest a "bucket" test comparison of the offending beltpack against one of its "siblings."
This involves taking a known "good" beltpack, firing it up on the "Groom's" channel and using towels or some other RF transparent support material to secure it (antenna upright) inside an RF attenuating metal bucket, trash can or some such.
Then take the whole "bucket" assembly to a location where its receiver's front panel indicates only marginal RF reception. It's easier to achieve this through artificial attenuation of RF range by dint of having no antennae connected to the receiver.
The "Groom's" beltpack in question will subsequently have a "clean bill of health" should it yield the same range when it takes the identical place of its "good" predecessor in the bucket.
Should it not, there's nothing to be lost from attempting a firmware "cure" via a further Line 6 "Monkey" re-flashing and confirmation with a subsequent repeat of the "bucket test".
It will only need servicing by Line 6 if it persists in exhibiting inferior RF levels after such re-flashing.
I'm betting that your beltpacks will, in fact, prove to be identical in RF performance. That leaves us with the "sweaty groom" effect.
I've made it a practice to quiz wearers regarding keys, mobile phones, coins, credit cards, foil-packed pills/lozenges/gum, multi-tools, Swiss army knives, pistols and (believe it or not) metal combs.
Anything that contains metal will degrade RF propagation when positioned close to the beltpack.
The Tune Belt Pouch technique I set out in our earlier discussion is certainly handy in this regard, but also, ...rather than forcing men to divest themselves of a whole range of trousered metal, I frequently resort to distancing my beltpack by relocating it to an upper inside jacket pocket which has the added benefit of increased height ...yielding better line of sight.
Along similar lines, my "diplomatic" discovery of women's wired corsets has forced me to hang the beltpack high inside the rear necklines of gowns.
You'll appreciate that it's probably wise to avoid phraseology such as "Is there any metal holding all that flab in, Sweetheart ?", ...but you get the drift.
Hopefully issue is NOT firmware related (since I don't have easy access to an XD-V75 anymore).
But I would have hoped that, simliar to other firmware updates, some sort of verification is done (to ensure
there is no corruption).
Can someone at Line 6 confirm/deny that there is some sort of post-flash error check done?
The "bucket" test sounds like a good test, but finding a metal bucket nowadays (at least here in Northeastern US) will be the challenge
since they all seem to be plastic these days.
I have access to a metal wheel barrel, which I assume should suffice.
The fact that issue has happened two weeks in a row, with same (dropout) results, on the same system (transmitter/receiver) but different groom/venue would
lead me to think that problem lies with the system. Since those are the only two constants (all other "variables" having been changed).
Can someone at Line 6 confirm/deny that there is some sort of post-flash error check done?
Yes, it is checked by Monkey
Unfortunately though, my dropout problem (on the groom mic) returned .. UGH!!
You're not putting the beltpack in his pocket are you? That will cut the range down as compared to putting it on his belt.
No, it is NOT placed in pocket. But clipped on the belt.
And to reiterate, I've had the same issue (with dropouts) two weeks in a row.
Obviously two different grooms (one would hope ..... LOL), and two different venues.
In both instances, problem only occurs with the same (groom) system (transmitter/receiver).
Officiant's systems (who is obviously standing next to groom), at same distance/venue does
NOT experience ANY dropouts/issues.
Regarding the "bucket" test, Ron...
Anything metal, that will enable you to create an easily repeatable marginal RF reading at the receiver without you needing to tramp off into the great U.S. outdoors, will do.
"Calibrating" RF attenuation by using a given angle of the partially open door on a microwave oven works a treat, provided there's no way the oven can possibly operate.
(Good though Line 6's beltpacks may be, I'm not convinced they'd pass a taste test. Who knows, ...maybe with caramelized onions, melted cheese and freshly cracked pepper...?)
The maintenance of identical test conditions is the only essential requirement for meaningful comparisons to be drawn.
I only suggested re-flashing as a "last ditch" attempt of an "at home" correction of the possible problem in the hope of avoiding temporarily losing the transmitter.
Like you, I'd be very surprised if Line 6 Monkey's routine didn't perform a self-diagnosis at the conclusion of any such procedure, ...but my long experience of eproms, flash rams and the like has shown me a huge range of "glitch-generating" environmental variables that can corrupt otherwise "bulletproof" digital systems.
By the way, I was sure there'd be no way you'd consider jamming a beltpack into a trouser pocket. My recommendation in favour of the upper inside breast pocket on a groom's formal wear relies on the transmitter's belt clip being attached to the side of that pocket that's closer to the groom's chest, with the beltpack hanging inside it.
This sort of mounting will combine with the "drape" of the jacket to stand the transmitting antenna away from the body.
So when you get a dropout ... the RF LED ladder goes off?
Do you scan for channels prior to use?
Do you check the RF performance in the setup mode to insure the best posible antenna placement?
How far apart are your paddles?
So when you get a dropout ... the RF LED ladder goes off?
Yes, for a split second, then "climbs" back up to full strength, back down to nothing ... repeat.
Do you scan for channels prior to use?
Yes. Although all potential sources of RF interference (e.g. guest's bluetooh phones, etc) are not present
at that time.
Do you check the RF performance in the setup mode to insure the best posible antenna placement?
No. But all my pre-event checks typically yeild full strength readings from all receivers.
But same as above, all potential RF interferences sources are usually not present.
How far apart are your paddles?
Varies. But my cables are only 25' long, thus paddles are never more than 50' apart.
Never closer than 6' apart.
Yeah, ...we'd pretty much covered all of those bases earlier in this discussion, hadn't we ?
As you originally said, Ron, the real conundrum remains the poorer performance of the one "Groom" beltpack compared to its near "neighbour".
On reflection, I'd just like to confirm that when you say "...I had changed all systems to lower channel..." this means that the entire "Groom chain" ended up on a different channel number to the one that gave trouble, but the fault recurred.
If so, I reckon itinerant WiFi or Bluetooth interference could almost be ruled out as
Whatever happens, there's nothing to be lost by comparing the signal from individual beltpacks via the crude "bucket/microwave" marginal RF test we've already discussed.
One other possibility: Is there any looseness whatsoever in the battery contacts or battery loading door of the offending beltpack?
I know this seems highly unlikely given the unwavering battery metering at the receiver, but I thought I'd mention it based on the million to one chance of a break in DC power having been brief enough to have gone unnoticed.
RonMarton wrote:
On reflection, I'd just like to confirm that when you say "...I had changed all systems to lower channel..." this means that the entire "Groom chain" ended up on a different channel number to the one that gave trouble, but the fault recurred.
Whatever happens, there's nothing to be lost by comparing the signal from individual beltpacks via the crude "bucket/microwave" marginal RF test we've already discussed.
One other possibility: Is there any looseness whatsoever in the battery contacts or battery loading door of the offending beltpack?
When "problem" 1st occurred, I was RF2 on all systems. Groom was channel 14, Officiant was channel 13.
Most recently, I switched all back to RF1. Put Officiant on channel 1 & groom channel 2.
Will try bucket (wheel barrel in my case) test soon since I have another ceremony this coming Sat.
Lastly, will verify battery connection/compartment as well.
The RF LEDs dropping to off means that you are out of range. So why you are out of range is the question. Is it always the same unit that drops out or is it just that one of the two drops? If you have isolated it to a single unit then you might indeed have a hardware issue which should be sent in for service.
Guest's bluetooth phones won't present problems unless it is right next to a transmitter (like an inch or two) or you have guests clip them on to both of your paddles at the same time.
Getting full RF readings isn't the same as getting maximum antenna placement. If you are having issues you should use the onboard tools to actually measure as there is some improvement to the system possible.
If you are out of range due to local conditions them moving at least one of your antennas closer to the groom in this case) could also do the trick.
The other thing you could look at is your near/far situation. It sometimes looks the the receivers like you were listening to one person inches from your ear while trying to listen to another person 20 feet away from you. If you have two beltpacks 50-100 feet away from your antennas and your handheld is within 10 feet of both of them this could cause dropouts if everything lines up. That's why moving one antenna closer to the ceremony and leaving one back closr to the equipment could help. In this case if your handheld was overpowering the beltpack receivers it could not capture both antennas. You could also try taking the near mic off of the paddles and use the whips for that one.
Sorry Folks,
...I'd overlooked the near/far possibility as my "mental picture" was of a celebrant officiating with a handheld mostly "between" the beltpack-wearing bride and groom, the happy trio all being between fifty and a hundred feet from the paddles.
Excuse this clarification Don, but I know that when you refer to a near handheld swamping far beltpacks by saying "...and your handheld is within 10 feet of both of them..." the "them" refers to the receiving antennae, not the beltpacks in question.
You'll know by now, Ron, that your switch from RF2's 13 & 14 to RF1's 1 & 2 has pretty much ruled out WiFi's and or Bluetooth's involvement in the crime.
It would seem that C.S.I. now needs to shift the focus on to individual beltpacks.
In the absence of 3D imaging, microscope, magic spray and blue light, I'm hoping that the forensics from your battery hatch, wheel barrel and disconnected receiver antennae can provide enough evidence to force a confession.
Yes ... the "them" in this case is the antennas.
dboomer wrote:
Is it always the same unit that drops out or is it just that one of the two drops?
It had been just the groom's, but this past weekend's ceremony, had issue with the officiant's lav instead.
dboomer wrote:
Getting full RF readings isn't the same as getting maximum antenna placement. If you are having issues you should use the onboard tools to actually measure as there is some improvement to the system possible.
This weekend's ceremony was right on the beach, at least 200 ft from closest house. I used onboard tools and they confirmed that all channels were indeed free and clear of any interference. Also, both (ch. A & B) RF signal strength measurements showed full power.
dboomer wrote:
If you are out of range due to local conditions them moving at least one of your antennas closer to the groom in this case) could also do the trick.
The other thing you could look at is your near/far situation. It sometimes looks the the receivers like you were listening to one person inches from your ear while trying to listen to another person 20 feet away from you.
Just to clarify, I typically only use two lavs for ceremony. One for groom, and second for officiant. Handheld is used only on occasion. But when it is used, it is at relatively same distance (from receivers ... at loc A or loc B.. see below) as the lavs. Thus, near-far shouldn't be the issue.
Here where I'm usually set up:
Officiant
Handheld-Loc-A Bride - Groom Handheld-Loc-B
Guest-Chairs Guest-Chairs
Guest-Chairs Guest-Chairs
Guest-Chairs Guest-Chairs
Guest-Chairs Guest-Chairs
Guest-Chairs Guest-Chairs
P-180 P-180
" "
" "
ME-HERE-------P-180 P-180------or ME HERE
Lastly, haven't gotten around to bucket test, or check battery cover. But given that issue has now happened on 2nd (officiant) lav transmitter,
I don't think those test wouldn't be neccessary any more.
If you are getting green RF LEDs but are experiencing audio dropouts I would suspect that the mic, cable or connector are the problem.
FROM PRIOR POST ABOVE.....
************************************************
So when you get a dropout ... the RF LED ladder goes off?
Yes, for a split second, then "climbs" back up to full strength, back down to nothing ... repeat.
************************************************
Thus, NOT mic, cable, or connector problem ... Right?
Right, Ron !
And your "map" makes me feel better about "near/far" issues not having originally occurred to me, as it's pretty much the mental image I had of your typical wedding set-up.
(As you'd foreshadowed, your handheld would need to come all the way behind the guest chairs to the receiving antennae for "near/far" issues to arise. Even then, my experience is that it would need to be on high power, with the beltpacks on "battery save", for problems to arise.)
Your conclusion that poor RF propagation and/or intermittent battery connection from individual beltpacks are unlikely to be involved would also seem to be spot on.
To my mind, this leaves us with consideration of the P180 paddles and the distribution of their RF to your three receivers.
(You've probably done all of this, but I'd rather risk offending you by telling you what you already know than omit a possible cause.)
That leaves only the antennae themselves.
I hate to say it, but my experience is that a pair of rubber duckie whips easily yield around 100 feet of reliable range atop either of my two correctly-terminated and daisy-chained racks of four XD-V70's, ...even with the transmitters operating at their lower "Battery Save" power setting.
Nevertheless, for set-ups such as yours, I do go to the trouble of rigging my P180's (at the end of Line 6 supplied 50 ft LMR195 BNC cables) as "insurance" ...in the event that those who were formerly seated eventually stand and "crowd" the line of sight from transmitters to receivers and/or 2.4GHz interference "walks in".
Regrettably, I can't see any way of preventing further professional embarrassment without the nuisance of unpacking and rigging for more testing prior to your next job.
First off, try with just rubber duckie whips. As you'll not have a crowd in the way, they should yield perfect results. In the highly unlikely event they don't, check and/or substitute short jumper cables (using the supplied "spare" pair) and/or terminator plugs (of which four "spares" were supplied) ...until they do.
Then rig and re-test with your 25 ft extensions and paddles.
Given that you report full strength on your receiver diagnostics, it's most unlikely that there's an antenna powering problem, nonetheless, you can check that both paddles are active by shielding their tiny blue LEDs from light to check that they're illuminating on connection. In the equally unlikely event that one isn't, swap antenna cables to ascertain whether it's an individual plate or an individual cable that's at fault.
Setting of the P180's "Cable Length" gain switch is critical. It's possible that gain being set either "too long" (too high, the more likely culprit) or "too short" (too low) may cause problems such as you've experienced.
Surprisngly, I have found that setting "one length too high" can be useful to obtain maximum range, (up to 300 metres on occasions, that's right, metres!) ...provided that the utmost care is taken in respect of both "near/far" conflict and back-rejection of any possible interference from "foreign" 2.4GHz radiation.
With any luck, we're close to solving this one...
RonMarton wrote:
To my mind, this leaves us with consideration of the P180 paddles and the distribution of their RF to your three receivers.
(You've probably done all of this, but I'd rather risk offending you by telling you what you already know than omit a possible cause.)
- Only short LMR195 BNC jumpers (as supllied with Line 6 receivers) can be used to "daisy chain" RF to multiple receivers,
- It's essential that "A Out" to "A In", "B Out" to "B In" order be observed and
- XD-V70's must have their supplied terminators plugged on to the un-used "A Out" & "B Out" antenna BNC's of the last receiver in the "daisy chain".
That leaves only the antennae themselves.
Eureka!! Mystery Solved!!! ... I hope.
BTW - Great Call RonMarton!!
So I checked my daisy chaining, and wa la ... only the 1st receiver (in the chain) was wired correctly.
It was the one used for my handheld, which coinicendentally never had any drop out issues ... duh!!
The two lav receivers were not daisy chained/terminated properly.
I had forgotten that when I got my P180s, I transferred my ceremony setup to a new SKB case. I gave the task of wiring my new case to my assistant. Which explains where the mistake happened.
When issues arose, I only checked for loose wires, but never to verify that it (wiring job) was done correctly. I "assumed" my assistant had simply duplicated my prior (correct) daisy chained wiring layout (when transferring my gear to the new case). And given that I got strong signal readings, I was none the wiser.
But alas, since all my test were done with no one around (e.g. no pesky human beings blocking my RF) the "weak" signal flaw was masked, and thus not apparent. I credit that to the powerful strength of Line 6 quad-channel RF1. But once all the guest showed up, blocking the signal with their bodies, the incorrect wiring no longer could overcome the weak signal. Bam .. the dreaded dropouts.
Great news, Ron...
But please don't be too hard on your assistant, as we've all been there and done that.
(Orville Wright: "Show me a man that never made a mistake ...and I'll show you a man that never made anything.")
One of many weird things with digital RF (as opposed to analog) is the actual manner of it's "dropping off" when conditions are wrong.
With digital, it's the actual capacitance-related bandwidth limitations imposed by incorrect cabling and/or termination, as well as (or combined with) reduction in level, that conspire to "simulate" being out of range.
You'll also appreciate that, in this case, (excuse the pun) diagnosis was made harder by the "red herring" of your handheld's "free air" operation (like that of any handheld) naturally affording better propagation than can be achieved by a beltpack.
I'm fairly confident you'll now share my routine experience of Line 6's XD-V systems, ...in that (henceforth) you'll be able to arrange stable reception from just about anywhere that shares the same zip code. ![]()
Glad the problem turned out to have a simple answer. This is usually the case![]()
Let me say again .... V75's do not need, nor should you use terminators. It's now built-in and that's why they are no longer supplied.
Let be say about the paddle switch being "critical". I would not characterize it like that. It will depend on conditions, but if you error it should be done to the less powerful selection. With RF having more than you need is usually problematic.
We are talking about V70's here, Mr B...
And you're right, ...I should have made it clear that the correct setting of head amplifier gain for cable-compensation with paddle antennae is only a "critical" concern for folks like me who delight in operating Line 6's transmitters at the limits of their range.
Stay in the mix and in the know.
Latest offers, special deals and insider updates.