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663 Views 22 Replies Latest reply: Dec 29, 2012 5:51 PM by scheater5 RSS
meambobbo Iknowathingortwo 1,702 posts since
Dec 13, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Oct 12, 2012 6:43 AM

Feature Request - Timing/Delay Parameter on Mixer Channels

edit: please see this link: http://line6.com/support/thread/88099

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I don't know if many of you have experienced this or maybe you have experienced it but just didn't realize it, but it seems there is a NECESSITY to have a variable delay to be added to the Mixer Channels.  This delay should be very small - between 0 and 40ms, and it should be adjustable in very fine increments, such as 0.1 ms.  This would be useful to synchronize Channels A and B to avoid comb filtering.

 

OR create a new phase-adjustment Delay effect.  This effect would always have a mix of 100% and a feedback of 0% but a variable delay time with min and max and increments specified above.  These could be added to one channel to adjust the signal accordingly.  It should consume very little DSP, and be very easy to implement.

 

There are three noticeable cases where comb filtering between channels is currently unavoidable:

 

1) Setting Input 1: Guitar, Input 2: Guitar/Same - To be honest, this should be corrected before the signals enter the signal chain.  Using these options and placing a mono-summing effect before the path split would still cause comb filtering and a phasing sound, even with the additional delay feature on the Mixer.  However, until that is fixed, the Mixer solution would remedy this problem for patches without mono-summing effects in front of the path split.

2) Using different cab/mic settings between Channel A and Channel B -  This is to be expected - different cabs and mic positions will result in minute differences in timing from when the sound waves hit the microphone.  Thus, they have different timing signatures and when mixed together are unlikely to be in-phase, producing comb filtering.  Some combinations are more in-phase than others, but it's likely that they're all out-of-sync, even if to a small degree.

3) Using different/more effects in one channel than the other - this is particularly evident with the EQ effects.  And this makes sense - I would imagine the algorithm to perform EQ adjustment needs a buffered sample size large enough to detect the lowest frequency available to be adjusted before the signal can be processed and output.  If we assume this is 60 Hz, that's 16.6667 ms.  That's a rather large delay in the signal and will result in comb filtering.

 

As a workaround, I no longer use Input 2: Guitar/Same whatsoever.  I only use cab/mic combinations for dual amp patches that sound relatively in-phase without adjustments.  In cases where I need to attempt to synchronize the two channels, I use neutral EQ effects.  They all seem to introduce slightly different delay signatures to the signal, so with enough experimentation I can find one that syncs the two channels as close as possible, but this process seriously lacks precision.  It only gets so far, never 100% there, and in many cases simply cannot get the job done.

 

If you feel as I do, please submit a request:

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/

 

Edit: Some have mentioned possibly making this adjustment automatic in a feature request.  I agree.  Some effects even change their delay value, making it impossible to be manually synced.

 

the pitch glide is the craziest example.  when you turn it on it's at a certain number of samples, but as you use it, the exact delay changes.  so if it's at unison and there's 20 sample delay, then you move it up an octave and back to unison, now the delay might be like 30 samples.

 

the mid-focus eq also seems to have slight variation of its delay as you move the LP freq and Q.

 

i think the best case fix would be a system setting that can be set either to auto or manual or mixed.  auto would behave as you describe - the two channels are automatically synced.  manual is straight sample-based delays adjustible on either channel as i originally described.  mixed would automatically update the values, but you could set it to be always at a certain amount out of sync.

 

The way auto would work is it would sum the total delay in samples for each channel in real time depending on the effect, amp, and cab/mic choices.  Whichever channel had the least latency would have latency added to match the other channel.  This would occur in real-time, so that toggling effects on/off, or changing parameters would not cause the channels to become out of sync.

 

i think all modes would be important because when mixing certain cab/mics, some people may find the comb filter effect to be pleasing, reducing some harsh high-end.  So manual/mixed would be as valuable as auto to these people.  and some people may even want to toggle effects on/off to engage/disengage the comb filter, so they'd prefer manual over mixed.

  • Iknowathingortwo 1,667 posts since
    Jul 17, 2007

    And I thought I had excellent hearing?  Not anymore as after reading all the posts - and there are many - about inadvertent comb filtering from the signal timing misalignment and the miniscule yet perceptable differences from "this" to "that".  Wow, I'm pooped.  And I actually do know all the terms and audible effects he has chosen to discuss.

     

    This is not a neg towards all the work, testing, and posts by the gentleman who started this new thread to further explain what he has discovered.  I think his time is wasted not being paid by Line 6 for all he has done to not only hear, but test, analyze, and even suggest multiple possible solutions to these issues he has found with just the one piece of gear - the POD HD500.  Then there is all his work in helping those who play heavy metal to get the best sounds possible for that style of music.

     

    I hope you are rewarded for all your work and efforts by those who are benefitting from it.

     

    All the best,

    Neal

     

    PS - with all you've found in just this POD HD500 guitar unit, I can only imagine what you'd find with the StageScape mixer.

  • DeanDinosaur Iknowathingortwo 443 posts since
    Jul 30, 2009

    Would a phase inverter help? One that has a slider where you can gradually slide to decide how much inversion is needed? They can add that as an effect.Regarding the delay, I think it would be a cool effect regardless. Didn't they have that in POD FARM 2?

  • pir8matt Just Startin' 8 posts since
    Apr 2, 2012

    I would just like to throw my hat in the ring as an HD500 user, I'd love to see anything implemented that would make dual-amp patches + FX more practical. They almost always eat up so much DSP you can barely add anything before you hit the limit.

    • chimp_spanner Just Startin' 336 posts since
      Nov 7, 2008

      Yeah what would really make dual tone feasable is if they treated the cabinet section as a separate block so you could choose to run one head into cabs (again with delay and phase controls). I would like to think it's not too late for them to implement such behaviour but...I dunno.

  • chimp_spanner Just Startin' 336 posts since
    Nov 7, 2008

    Hey Meambobbo! Sorry I never replied to you the other day - was in Belgium at a guitar demo/clinic event with terrible internet access. I will work through your spreadsheets as soon as I have Excel installed on my computer again. Very interested to try them!

     

    In any case, this feature is absolutely essential. It would be so SO easy to add. There is a lot of 'science' behind why it is needed, and I'm sure upon first glance it may seem to casual users like it's a purely academic issue. But on a real practical level, dual cabs just sound wrong without it. I have used Cubase to introduce delay after the fact and it does indeed sound a lot better (you can't do this in real time, but only on playback...perhaps that was the issue you were experiencing?).

     

    For real time playing I tend to run the second channel through the FX loop and into my X3 Pro (blank patch) as that has just enough latency to cancel out the comb filtering. Seems a waste of an X3 though

    • DeanDinosaur Iknowathingortwo 443 posts since
      Jul 30, 2009

      You can upload the spreadsheet to your google account and view it in your browser.. It works perfectly. I use google spreadsheet to share any excell file throuhout our company.

  • josegermain Just Startin' 6 posts since
    Nov 19, 2006

    Great job meambobbo ! Line6 better take notice of this .

  • Rewolf48 Just Startin' 133 posts since
    Aug 9, 2010

    Just adding the my text that you referenced about how auto mode should work, but you didn't include in your update - I wouldn't want it to get lost:

     

    rewolf48 wrote:

     

    Just thinking about this a little more - I am not sure that I really want to be able to manually adjust the delays; if I did have the option I would like to have an "Auto" setting.

     

    Each processing block will introduce a delay, and that delay is probably fixed but might vary with a switch setting e.g. some of the flangers or chorus effects or just switching the effect on and off.

     

    The delay for each processing block can be measured in "samples", so in Auto mode the sum of the delays on each path can be compared and the path with the shorter delay then delayed by the difference between the two to match the longer delay path. 

     

    The delay may be different depending on whether the effect is switched on or off, but it shouldn't be difficult to update it in real time.

     

    The same principle can be applied to the phase as well - each processing block models a real device that contains a number of amp stages, some of which will invert the signal, but the nett effect along each path can be summed and the shorter path inverted if necessary at the same time as it is being delayed (because even a simple inversion is going to cost a tiny amount of time).

     

    Just an idea - my electrical engineering days are a long, long time ago; it is all IT these days

     

  • IRQ7 Just Startin' 14 posts since
    May 18, 2011

    Not  related, but I wonder, do you know what's the inherent input-output delay of the HD500?

  • scheater5 Just Startin' 44 posts since
    Nov 6, 2011

    With NAMM coming up, I wanna throw my hat into this behind Meambobbo.  An annoucement of a new firmware, or at least an upcoming firmware, would make me so happy.  I've used an Axe Fx II in the studio, and probably will continue to until there are some updates to the cab features on the Pod - but I love my HD500 and I use it live.  I have been reading your tone guide, and came here to suggest that the manual delay have an auto feature - which I see has recently been added to the OP.   

     

    In my opinion, the thing holding the Pod HD line from competing with Fractal is the cabs.  I would love to see user IRs possible, but adding in your suggestions (which I can't see any reason they would not be technically possible) would already go a long way towards fixing that weakness.  (User IRs may well not be technically possible - but sample delay should be pretty easy)

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