Currently Being ModeratedSep 5, 2012 7:51 AM (in response to gci6knzw9)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
Master volume and amp volume reacts different, depending on the amp model you are using.
So this is - unfortunatelly - not a pratical/general option to control the overall volume BY MAINTAINING A CONSISTENT TONE to me.
This means that you cannot - for example - set the master volume to generally to 30% and varying the amp volume knob for ALL your amps. A PARK-75 never will generate tube driven distortion with master volume set at 30%. A Treadplate model (due to a high pre amp distoration) will already produce tube saturation at that level.
As I am favouring real tube driven sounds, I am using the pre amp models. Some amps using pre amp models move only with very high master volume (1-2 o clock) and amp volume at 12 o clock (PARK-75) into tube saturation. This leads with a DT50 (no LVM) into ear bleeding :-(
LVM is not a real option for LIVE giging - sounds more modelling to me.
The only way I found to handle a consistant tone and be flexible volume wise at the same time is using a power attenuator. For a DT50 a ppower attenuator should have around 100 watts to cover peaks. Another advantage of a power attenuator is that you don not need to maintain different presets for diffrent volume levels (one with pre amp models and one with full amp models).
Using a power attenuator you can set your master volume to 1-2 o clock (thats what I am doing) and your amp volume different if you want. I am setting my amp volume also constant level of 50% (with very few exceptions). I am balancing the different volume levels of the amps with the mixer for lowering thespecific preset volume. I am using the gain knob of the Studio EQ at the very end of the preset signal chain to increase preset volume, if needed. The overall volume to adapt to the specific room I am playing is set by the power attenuator.
For levelling the volume of your preset you need to find the amp with the lowest volume. Maximize the volume of that amp. That is your reference point. In my case it is the Fender Twin (BF Double = Max. Driove for clean = 40% and amp volume to 100%).
If you are interesseted in a power attenuator, these ones seems to be well respected in the Line6 forums:
- Weber mass
- Dr.Z airbrake
- RIVERA rockcrusher
I am using a Rivera Rockcrusher.
Good luck - wolbai.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 5, 2012 10:00 AM (in response to wolbai)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
Thanks for your help, I've noticed that almost all of the custom tone patches I download are set a full channel volume. I guess I just have to find a middle ground for ease of use. Thanks again.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 5, 2012 12:12 PM (in response to wolbai)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
Just my two cents worth here: I had problems, initially, with volume/tone variations on my HD500/JTV/Mesa rig. At a gig, I wanted to simply stomp on the Pod 500HD, have the patch set everything (including volume, amplifier mode, the JTV mode & tuning, the works). I achieved that after a lot of trial & error, and by adding one or two things to my HD500, but one of the issues was finished patch volume differences. I ended up using iPhone apps, RTA Lite, and another called SPL, which allowed me to roughly balance the patches for the same dB levels that we play at. My "real" amplifier did have a great master volume circuit, though. Another way was to mic the actual cab I'm using into the board, and check the board's input levels for consistency across patches, holding all other settings constant, except the mixer level on the HD500. I have no experience with the DT amps, but my Mesa works just fine. It even has a "Solo" footpedal switch, which gives me an instant preset boost, anytime I need it, but the POD's volume pedal can also do that, I guess. Anyway, I am able to achieve consistent (or should I say "predictable"?) volume and tone by measuring dB, and by using a conventional amplifier (i.e. non-DT), but I would hope that the DT would also be predictable.
Dunno if that helps any.
Currently Being ModeratedSep 5, 2012 1:35 PM (in response to LarryLion)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
The HDXXX pedals unfortunatelly don't have any db meter-tools to measure or balance different preset/patch volume levels.
I think to finally balance (fine tuning) all your presets you:
- should balance them at gig volume level either with your ears or with additional tools like you did (iPhone app, etc.) initially and
- recheck them with your Band at rehearsals.
To make life easier, I think it is good to have for each amp model you are using (I have approx. 4 different amps) a reference preset volume wise. For example:
most of my Rhytm Treadplate presets are running at:
- a fixed master volume level (1-2 o clock)
- 50% amp volume
- drive at 47%,
- mixer -10 db
These reference preset is volume wise in line with all my other Rhytm presets from other amps. If there is a need for an additional Treadplate Rhytm preset I will use this reference preset first. Of course there has to be done an adaption, if I lower for example the drive knob in a new preset. In this case I will increase the dbs at the mixer parameter to compensate.
For solo boosting there are several options in the HDXXX-pedal. As my amp with the lowest volume is the Fender Twin (BF Double), most of my other amps I am using (mainly Plexi Lead, JCM800, Treadplate) are lowered at the mixer level (mainly between -15 and -3db). The Treadplate Rhym is at -10db. For a solo boost I am increasing in most cases the Rhytm preset by +7db on the specific amp model. I use a separat preset for Solos, because in most cases I have some different settings (additional Delay, etc.) compared to the Rhytm preset.
But I guess the OP mainly focused on a generic volume leveling. And this is in my case mainly done with a power attenuator, not with the master volume and/or amp volume knob. When using amp models where the behaviour of master volume and amp volume setting is VERY different, I honestly cannot see any alertnativ to a power attenuator.
I added the "fine tuning" challenge at preset level, because this is next natural step to move into.
Finally it has to be always pointed out that the HD-500 used with a DT50/25 is very accuratelly modelling the real amps. The DT50/25 is a monitoring system to manage a VARIETY of amps with all their specific behaviours soundwise and volumewise. So balancing all these different amp volumes to set it up for a workable gigging rig was one of the most challenging issues with the "Dream Rig" to me.
But this is not a science, it is fairly possible. It just needs some time, a little experience and support like these forums are providing.
I have benefit in the past a lot from experienced users here. And I do hope to give something back to the community - at last that's my intension :-)
Currently Being ModeratedSep 5, 2012 3:31 PM (in response to wolbai)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
How does adjusting/balancing the volume from the mixer affect the tone from the amp? I really like the Dr Z amp patch that Glenn Delaune has created; a great Keith Richards vibe about it. But to get that I need to drive the amp hard and even at 25 watts the DT-25 is LOUD! If I attenuate the volume with the mixer to offest the amp will I lose that crunchy tone I so long for?
I really don't wish to purchase an attenuator at this stage. I lug enough crap to my gigs/shows as it is!
Thanks for your time
Currently Being ModeratedSep 6, 2012 3:07 AM (in response to scotty_burford)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
What I can say from Testings, practising and experience is:
1. The Mixer volume will not affect the tone setting in a given limit of +/- 5 to 7db (reference is 0db).
Reducing volume much more than -7 db will affect the tone. That is what you have probably occured with the Dr Z amp model.
Increasing volume very much over +7 db can run into effect clipping of effects you are using after the mixer in the signal chain.
(By the way: I don't think these are real dbs; it is more just a scale to me).
2. All in all this means: The Mixer volume is okay for fine tuning the volume between presets, but it CANNOT be a substitution for a power attenuator to handle the overall volume level of your output amp by achieving a consistent tone.
3. There are amp models in the HDXXX which need a fairly high amount of tube power section load to come into a saturation mode. The PARK-75 which I am using for some Crunch (Stones, etc.) and Lead Tones is one of these amps. The Dr. Z amp which I have no experience with it, seems to be another one. To make these amps cooking you need to set the Master Volume level OVER 12 o clock ( 1-2 o clock). Now this will lead automatically into a fair high volume, because your amp volume needs also to be set at around >= 40% I guess.
4. A fair amount of users of amps like the Marshall Plexi Lead with a 100 Watt have either modified their amps to switch them into a 50 Watt mode or they use a power attenuator to reduce the overall volume. Because these type of amps only get that creamy tube driven power section distortion on a very high volume level. And this is sometimes just TOO loud for the environment you are playing live music. Having these amps available in the HDXXX will NOT solve that volume problem by itself. It is still there.
MY PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS TO DEAL WITH DIFFERENT AMPS VOLUMES BY ACHIEVING AN OVERALL CONSISTENT TONE ARE:
a. I am using a power attenuator to adapt the OVERALL volume to the envorinment I am playing (reherasal, gig).
I only use pre amp models. I don't need to have different presets for different rooms (one with pre amp models, one with full amp models).
b. I set my Master volume at the DT50 at 1-2 o clock. This is brings all my amps with a higher need of power section load into saturation. This also gives the amp some Headroom for Peaks and Clean Tones.
c. I then use in a first step the amp volume to balance the DIFFERENT volume levels of my amps. The amp volume therefore varies from 40% - 100%.
For example: the Treadplate amp volume is set at 45%. The JCM800 at 40%. The Twin Reverb at 100%. (Cannot speak for all amps, but amp volumes much under 40% will affect the tone in a negativ way).
d. At last I am using the Mixer volume in a range of -7db to +4db to balance individual preset. The presets can still vary in volume level by different Drive settings or just by using FX-block which adds/decrease some gain.
e. To significantly increase amp volume by avoiding effect clipping, I am using the Studio EQ at the very last FX-block in a signal chain.
f. The levelling can be done either by ears (thats what I am doing) or with any db meter tools as mentioned in that Thread. In any case it is good to recheck this in a rehearsal scenario.
g. For a Solo boost I am increasing the Mixer volume by 7db (again: don't think these are real 7dbs) compared to the corresponding Rhytm preset of the amp I am using.
h. I have maxed the volume of my lowest clean amp I am using (Fender Twin Reverb) by the following settings:
- Drive = 40%
- Amp Volume = 100%
- Studio EQ as the very LAST effect in the signal chain of the preset with GAIN at +12db
Other elemnts which affects clean tones:
- guitar model you choose
- guitar input signal level in HDXXX: I am using 1M
- Input1 + 2 source in HDXXX: I am using VARIAX for input 1 and Guitar for input 2
These settings leaves my presets clean.
I have done this to reduce the huge volume gab between a JCM800 and the Fender Twin reverb. Otherwise the balance with the amp volume knob would lead into somewhere around 30% and that seems too low for me.
Now there are OTHER possibilities to handle overall tone and volume:
- Using the LVM on the DT50/25
- working with full amp models
- using OD or distortion pedals to sound the amp saturated
and probably some others I am not aware of. All of these other possibilities are for my grazy ears loaded with too much modelling and therefore negativ tone impacts.
Uuups: A lot of woooords I have written - I hope that is not too boring ...
Finally I always want to point out: As ears and experience are different, so my ideas will differ from others in these forums. Any Feedback and other experience to share is therefore more than welcome!
Currently Being ModeratedSep 6, 2012 7:44 AM (in response to scotty_burford)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
it is a pleasure for me, if there is the one or other idea you can pick up to improve your specific environment!
By the way: I have heared a YouTube-Clip from you, demonstrating some Blues licks over a DT25. Nice playing! Keep on that good work!
I personally think that demonstrating Line6 equipment either by audio and/or Video, in addition to words, is very powerful and selfspeaking. Although it doesn't need to be always genius, it makes the one some how attackable. But I think that is something, everyone has to live with, who is a live performer :-)
Currently Being ModeratedSep 7, 2012 11:06 AM (in response to kisscool82)Re: New Dream Rig User- Questions about volume
I am glad that I could help you some how!
Initially I was struggling too with POD HD and the DT50/212. Unfortunatelly Line6 is not very clear in some fundamental points for starters in my opinion.
There is just too much "It is up to the users choice ... There is no right or wrong ..."
A bit more official guidance from Line6 how to initially set up a DT50/25 with a POD HD and how to set relevant parameters inside the POD HD (including using cab/sims or not, etc.) had helped me also.
But there are a lot of excellent EXPERTS (I don't consider me as one) in the Line6 forums who are willing to share their huge experience with you. And this is very outstanding and I have often benefit from in the past.
Don't give up - a DT50/25 and a POD HD is a powerful combination as a guitar rig!
All the best - wolbai.