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jpoprock Just Startin'
jpoprock
59 posts since
Sep 2, 2006
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Mar 22, 2011 12:11 PM

HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

Hey guys! I'm going to be soundchecking my tones thru the house PA at church tonight. It's a big church and a big PA. But I don't know what to expect from it. I've dialied in some tones that I like, and have played them via the studio out and headphones, as well as changing it to a Stack/Power Amp to reference thru my stereo 4x12 (in both stereo and mono too). The thing is, I don't have a GOB of confidence in our FOH guys. It depends on who it is. But


You'd think that if it sounds good via Studio Out, and it sounds good via Stack/Pwr Amp, that it would sound good thru the house. But does the burden to adjust fall on me, or the FOH guy? I shouldn't have to have some sort of "compensation reference" in my head when dialing in tones at home. If it sounds killer, then it should sound pretty killer thru the house right? I always hate it when you find that your awesome tone sounds like a chainsaw thru the FOH, or has way too much gain (less is more, I know), or high end, etc. My question is... is there anyway to establish a pretty good baseline for whether your tones are good or not? Because if I show up tonight early and soundcheck my tones... and find that they are WAY off from what it sounds like outfront... that will really throw me for a loop. I'm ok with making some adjusments. But doesn't it really fall on the sound guy to make his adjustments to get it sound right?

 

I mean, Lincoln Brewster has his tones dialed with his X3. You'd think that he gives it to him as he wants them, and makes THEM dial it in. He shouldn't have to constantly "guess" as to what will sound good. If it is good, then it should be good. I don't want to end up with "tones for church, and tones for everything else" if I can avoid it, because I won't truly know if they will sound good until I try it... which takes all the fun out of constructing sounds at home.

 

I guess I won't know until I hear the characteristics of the PA and room. But it would be nice to have an idea before hand! I've spent hours crafting the types of tones and sounds that I will likely use, and I would hate it if they were way off the mark. I'd be surprised. But I expect it, so there ya go. It's my luck.

 

Also, I'm assuming that I'll be feeding the PA mono. So, for Dual Amp tones.. the unit doesn't make those mono do they? It seems like when I tested this thru my 4x12 mono, only one of the two amps were there. I guess that means I'll have to change the panning to both be out of the Left side, right? Will this make stereo delays sound funny too? I'd have to think that it would. So I avoid stereo patches.

 

I guess I'll let you know how the soundcheck goes and what I discover. Should be interesting.

  • hitchface Just Startin'
    hitchface
    334 posts since
    Jul 1, 2007
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    Mar 22, 2011 12:16 PM (in response to jpoprock)
    Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

    Going from headphones to PA has been a major disappointment for most folks who have tried. Unless you've got nice, flat studio headphones, it won't even be close.

     

    Linc used a global EQ (AFAIK) that he would tweak from venue to venue.

    • jpoprock Just Startin'
      jpoprock
      59 posts since
      Sep 2, 2006
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      Mar 22, 2011 12:23 PM (in response to hitchface)
      Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

      Yikes, that's not what I wanted to hear! Well, studio out with Shure Ec2 headphones is great. Then switching the output to Stack/Pwr Amp and running the same patches thru my 4x12 in mono and stereo sounds just as good for the most part because the device compensates for it. I do know from experience that if what you're using to reference has a lot of low end, then a big PA will likely have WAAAAY too much. The same with treble. I think I've thought it thru as best as I can. I guess we'll see how close I was tonight!

       

      Remind me again what AFAIK means?

      • hitchface Just Startin'
        hitchface
        334 posts since
        Jul 1, 2007
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        Mar 22, 2011 12:40 PM (in response to jpoprock)
        Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

        As Far As I Know.

         

        And yeah, I know it probably wasn't what you wanted to hear. Generally people are using consumer headphones to create patches. Consumer 'phones give you a smiley-faced frequency curve, so when they mix for it and go to PA, all of a sudden they've got this honky, SUPER midrangey and very flatulent tone. Because the PA is ideally flat, people wind up over-compensating for the headphone sound and get a mess of a sound.

         

        Just be prepped to tweak the EQ. The heart of your town should remain. Keep in mind the Fletcher Munson curve and you'll be golden.

  • jtatwood Just Startin'
    jtatwood
    70 posts since
    Mar 18, 2006
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    Mar 22, 2011 1:08 PM (in response to jpoprock)
    Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

    jpoprock wrote:

    Also, I'm assuming that I'll be feeding the PA mono. So, for Dual Amp tones.. the unit doesn't make those mono do they? It seems like when I tested this thru my 4x12 mono, only one of the two amps were there. I guess that means I'll have to change the panning to both be out of the Left side, right? Will this make stereo delays sound funny too? I'd have to think that it would. So I avoid stereo patches.

     

    Keeping it simple with mono is the easiest route but no reason not to try stereo thru the PA. Just use your 2 XLR channels into the board and hard pan RT & LFT. Your FX will sound awesome. I use stereo chorus @ church all the time. The 1/4" output will sum both channels for you so your dual amp tones will work fine, you'll get all info but of course stereo effects will just be mono. Remember to love on your FOH guys. And remember you can loop your guitar and run down there yourself to hear what it sounds like, help EQ it if you need.

     

    Let us know how it went.

     

    Peace

    • Stratotron Just Startin'
      Stratotron
      132 posts since
      Mar 13, 2007
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      Mar 22, 2011 1:32 PM (in response to jtatwood)
      Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

      From an X3 perspective.

      I found that my stereo delay out of the XLRs was stereo no mater how I panned it. So I patch both XLRs XLR -1/4") out to a DI box and send the sum (Single XLR)  to the board. This has worked really well and no more panning issues ever again.

       

      The 1/4 inch out is a sum.

       

      In a pinch, without going in to a lot of detail about the FM study, my blanket rule of thumb is to scoop out the upper mids. And, first time out, maybe try using the rig like an amp with stomp boxes instead of using a bunch of untried patches. In other words, maybe pick an amp model, with reverb and a delay. that will cover the whole set, and punch in and out effects (Distortion/Drive, Modulation) like you were using stomp boxes. Let that be your baseline. Once you get back home, you can design and balance patches to that.

       

      Just a thought....

       

        Blessings,

      S

      • darligre Just Startin'
        darligre
        59 posts since
        Jun 3, 2011
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        Jun 14, 2011 5:54 PM (in response to Stratotron)
        Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?
        Very helpful information.  How do you like using your HD500 for church services?  Is there a special Y connector for putting the two XRL's together?
        • Stratotron Just Startin'
          Stratotron
          132 posts since
          Mar 13, 2007
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          Jun 15, 2011 8:00 AM (in response to darligre)
          Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

          There is an XLR  "wye" cable available. I think I described earlier that I made 2 XLR x 1/4" cables and run them to the parallel 1/4" inputs of a DI box and send the  XLR to the board. I love the HD. It is much warmer and "real" sounding than the X3, and I loved my X3! Our sound tech likes it for the same reasons, smoother, less bright than the X3.

           

          Here are a couple of things. The X3 outputs could be assigned seperately. The HD assigns your output selection to both the 1/4s and the XLRs. After much messing around, here is what I have chosen. I run my HD output assigned to Combo-Front so I have use of  the focus adjustment. However, I run my 1/4" out to the power amp in on my Marshall 50 watt (stage monitor), thus by-passing the pre amp section, and run the summed XLRs to the board. At this point, both the 1/4" and the XLRs have the focus adjustment effecting them. I am running the HD master at about 3:00 or 3/4 volume. The sound tech says the signal level is right.

           

          I chose this configuration because I wasn't confident in how much my stage amp was tailoring the sound of the HD. Using the power amp in,( actually, effects return) I only have one control on my amp to deal with, master volume up and down ,and it only affects my stage level, which is aimed away from the congregation.

           

          I was EXTREMELY happy with the results last Sunday. The set really ran the gamut patch-wise. From chimy clean, with a step filter (Seeker) running in the background, to bluesy drive, to a total Brian May harmonized guitar tone a the end of one song. While looking for a synth tone for the end of "You Are Holy" in G. I stumbled across a stock harmonizer patch in the HD called "Puppet Master Solo". It was designed for the key of G and fit it perfectly. I renamed it  "Our Master Solo". For fun, find it on your HD, and play the solo to "More Than A Feeling" by Boston in G and amaze your friends! It also works for the intro to "Ramblin' Man", by the Allman Bros, and "Le Bres" by the Allman Bros, but not in Am. I played it up at 12th fret Em.

           

          Last Sunday's setlist:

          You are Holy

          Jesus, My Redeemer

          The Jesus Way ( New tune by Brian Doerkson)

          Glorify Thy Name (newer version, not the standard)

          Adoration

           

          Blessings,

           

          Strato

          • jpoprock Just Startin'
            jpoprock
            59 posts since
            Sep 2, 2006
            Currently Being Moderated
            Jun 16, 2011 12:40 PM (in response to Stratotron)
            Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

            I've only had the chance to play my HD500 ONCE thru the Church PA since buying it, but I was very pleased as I think I indicated. I have played with it live numerous times, running it stero out to a stereo power amp, then into a stereo Marshall 4x12 slant, and it's YUMMY. I'm extremely pleased with this unit! I couldn't ask for more really. I guess if I had a "wish list", I wish that they would fix the Vox AC30/15 tones because those are two amps that are quite popular but difficult to model (Unless you're Vox!). There is no in between with those amps. They are either right on the money, or very "Brittle/harsh" sounding with their overdrive. At least live, my AC30 patch tends to sound sorta thin and "sizzleen" as I like to say. If the gain structure has too much hair on it, and too much high end, it's bad news. And Vox amps by nature have a saggy low end to them anyway. So, in order to dial in the Vox sound, you need to experiment with different EQ's and overdrives to smooth it out. I still haven't done that yet, but plan to try.

             

            I also wish that Line 6 would alllow us to download bass and vocal patches for this unit. I sitll haven't taken the time to figure out how to use a Mic with this unit. I think it's only meant to be used for "vocoder" effects. So it's Mic and Guitar IN, but only Guitar out? The mic you sing into controls the vocoder effect, and then that gets sent to the board via the output. So in other words, the Mic can't do double duty and function as my main microphone? If I were wanting to use it for Vocoder FX, I'd have to use two mic's? One for my vocals that goes to the board, and one beside it that goes into the HD500 for effects only? Still haven't researched that fully yet.

            I also haven't spent much time with the looper, but I hear it's nice. Like I said, I haven't spent time getting into the features, but I wonder if you can load audio loops and play over them? I don't think you can. However, there might be a way to use your iPod or whatever to play and record a section as a loop to play over? Does anyone know?

             

            Btw... i think the new update they released not long ago is an improvement, so I suggest you applying it if you can. There have been grumblings I think about the Bogner patches... and maybe that's a non-issue now, but I will say this much... on my XTlive, I LOVED the Boogie and Bogner amps. But on the HD500, I think they are rotten. My go to patches (which one day I will share), are generally all tweaked to taste, and consist of the JCM800,

            JTM-45,Divided by 13 JRT 9/15, & DR-Z Route 66. I've used many of the presets that came with the unit as starting points, and I've found a few online that are good. Generally, the tones I get from Custom Tone are not all that usable for me, but occasionally I'll fine one that I can work with. Rarely do they come down the pipe and not need tweaked though. It's because tone is so subjective!


            When I played thru the church PA, I just went mono XLR out to a DI. My FOH guy said that I could certainly go stereo out if I wanted, however, I'd be the only one of the guitarists that does that. My role on guitar is going to increase in the fall. I'm scheduled for next Sunday and I'll also be singing a special. The songs will be:


            Because of Your Love - Paul Baloche

            Let God Arise  - Chris Tomlin

            How Marvelous (I Stand)

            Stronger - Hillsong

            Mighty To Save - Hillsong United

            Alive Again - Matt Maher (My vocal special)

             

            Blessings!

            Jason

            • darligre Just Startin'
              darligre
              59 posts since
              Jun 3, 2011
              Currently Being Moderated
              Jun 16, 2011 3:59 PM (in response to jpoprock)
              Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?
              How did you go mono out the XLR out?  Or did you just go out the left 1/4' out to a direct box that switched it over to XLR?
              • jtatwood Just Startin'
                jtatwood
                70 posts since
                Mar 18, 2006
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jun 16, 2011 4:07 PM (in response to darligre)
                Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                Shouldn't need a DI for the balanced out. You can go mono as long as both channels are panned to the same side. Good stuff though.

                • Stratotron Just Startin'
                  Stratotron
                  132 posts since
                  Mar 13, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jun 16, 2011 4:12 PM (in response to jtatwood)
                  Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                  I actually built these for my X3L because no matter how I panned the stereo delay, I only got  one side through the XLRs. I use the set up for my HD and it no longer matters how things are panned as I always send a summed mono to the board through the DI.

                   

                  Blessings,

                    • darligre Just Startin'
                      darligre
                      59 posts since
                      Jun 3, 2011
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Jun 16, 2011 5:00 PM (in response to darligre)
                      Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?
                      I think a few who have replied to some of my questions don't understand what I'm getting at.  I don't want stereo but want to make sure the whole sound is there.  I don't care if it goes back and forth from right to left on a effect.  I just want to have the whole sound and not have silence or something weird when the side not plugged in is missing.
                    • Stratotron Just Startin'
                      Stratotron
                      132 posts since
                      Mar 13, 2007
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Jun 17, 2011 7:54 AM (in response to darligre)
                      Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                      Yep! This is the bomb! If I could have walked in to Guitar Center and grabbed one of these off the rack, I wouldn't have built my own. I know I can mail order one and will next time I place a Larger order.

                       

                      And yes again, we are talking about summed mono and not stereo imaging. What I was getting at about my X3 was, I would send only one XLR to the board with everything panned hard to that side and discovered later that only one side of my stereo delay was making it to the board. No matter how I panned it, the timed delay was on one send and the offset delay was on the other. But both sides were coming out of my 1/4", so I was getting a summed mix on stage but it wasn't in the house. For instance on "Stronger" by Hillsongs only the timed delay was being hear in the house, the trailing off triplets weren't. Probably no big,'cept to me!

                       

                      At any rate I figure as long as I use a wye adapter system of some kind, panning to the house is one less thing to think about. Still gotta pan for the 1/4' however...

                       

                      Back in the 90s (pre church club band days) I used a Digitech GSP through a stereo power amp into a split half stack. From where I was standing there was this monsterous stereo imaging, but it was completely lost on the house. Because the house speakers generally were so far apart, that even though I sent 2 feeds to the board they were panned to the center so that one side or the other didn't sound weird. I came to a personal conclusion that stereo imaging is great for recording, but as for live apps, it was really just to make me feel good. That is just my opine...

                       

                      Happy Friday...God IS Good!

                       

                      Blessings, Bro.

                       

                      D

                      • darligre Just Startin'
                        darligre
                        59 posts since
                        Jun 3, 2011
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Jun 17, 2011 8:50 AM (in response to Stratotron)
                        Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?
                        For anyone out there wanting to buy one of these pedals,  Guitar Center has a $100 off coupon online that you can print out.  The catch is you have to go to one of there stores to buy it because Line 6 equipment is on their exclusion list for buying it online with the discount coupon.
              • Stratotron Just Startin'
                Stratotron
                132 posts since
                Mar 13, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jun 16, 2011 4:08 PM (in response to darligre)
                Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                I personally built 2 XLR x 1/4" cables about 14" long each. I then use those to patch both XLRs to the parallel 1/4" inputs on a small DI box. Then I send the XLR out of the DI box to the board. I have also seen XLR "wye" adapters from Guitar Center-Musicians Friend ranging from around $25.00- $49.00. I don't recall right now which contacts on the XLRs that I soldered to. The first set of cables that I built were noisy.

              • jpoprock Just Startin'
                jpoprock
                59 posts since
                Sep 2, 2006
                Currently Being Moderated
                Jun 23, 2011 8:28 AM (in response to darligre)
                Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                I just pick one of the two XLR outputs and plug the feed from the snake (board) into that. So essentially, I'm using one XLR cable to feed the board and that's it. The PA is stereo, but i'm not being mixed in stereo for the house. In otherwords, if I happened to have a dual amp config or a ping pong delay, you're not going to hear Amp 1 on the Left and Amp 2 on the Right. Same for the pingpong delay. You won't hear it bounce left and right if standing in the audience.

                 

                I THINK I read somewhere that if you have a dual amp config, not matter how you have it set up on the board, if you go mono out, the two amps get converted to mono. I don't know for sure, so I try to stay away from Dual Amp tones. Gee... perhaps I need to actually read the manual? LOL! I have read the manual in certain areas... but I access it when the situation arises. I'd probl read it more often if I had a "book" copy of it.

                 

                Anyway, my In-Ear mix is dual mono I think, because I can pan myself L, C, or Right. But if I'm in the center, I'm not in both L & R. That would rule! The FOH guy told me that if I wanted to do it a certain way, he'd let me. But I'm only one of three electric guitarists. And none of the others would do it the way I'd like to do it. So, just for the sake of keeping it simple and consistant, I just follow the path of least resistance and do the mono thing. I would LOVE to have a better in-ear mix. In fact, I'll email the FOH guy now and ask him how that could be done. I just don't want to come off like a diva with crazy "demands", because all of us "deal with what we have". So I have to be careful about opening that door.

                 

                But I'm intrigued by this dual XLR to 1/4 cable that was made. Can't you just buy a cable like that? I can make one too, but I've never really dabbled with making cables. Could someone explain to me again what I would gain if I went dual XLR out to a DI (my DI has a 1/4 IN and a second IN/Thru), and then feed the board from the single XLR out of the DI. As it goes now, I'm just going Left or Right XLR out of the HD500, directly to the snake which feeds the FOH. I could use a DI to do the same thing, but that's just one more thing to mess with. What would I benefit, and what would the FOH guy have to do differently to my mixer channel (Which is the elect guitar channel for all three of us who rotate), if I went dual XLR out to both 1/4" inputs of a DI, then out to the board? What does that do for me compared to what I'm doing now? Regardless of how I feed the board, it still ends up getting sent to a mono track. I guess I could just go dual XLR out, each to it's own channel of the board, which would be stereo, which would then be panned accordingly in the FOH. I don't see why I couldn't do that.

                 

                However, in our big sanctuary, I wouldn't be surprised if I were stereo in the FOH, that I I'd somehow be more of a challenge to mix, since I'd be the only guy in stereo.

                 

                Thanks!
                Jason

                • Stratotron Just Startin'
                  Stratotron
                  132 posts since
                  Mar 13, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Jun 23, 2011 9:21 AM (in response to jpoprock)
                  Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

                  IMHO...The XLRs are panned to however the HD is told to pan them, so any effect you use that has stereo imaging will come out R or L depending. The XLR "Y" cord is by far the simple solution. Make sure it is 2 male x 1 female. The end result is that you will never have to worry about how a patch is panned ever again. It will always output summed mono through the XLR "Y".

                   

                  "*In otherwords, if I happened to have a dual amp config or a ping pong delay, you're not going to hear Amp 1 on the Left and Amp 2 on the Right. Same for the pingpong delay. You won't hear it bounce left and right if standing in the audience.*"

                   

                  My (hopefully simple) comment... Using only 1  XLR send , we will say left borrowing from your example, you will only hear the side that is sent to the board in the house. For instance, if "Ping" is panned R and "Pong" is panned L and you are sending L to the house, standing in the audience you will only hear *Amp 1* and _______ Pong_______Pong _______Pong, etc. Early on with POD devices I encountered the stereo imaging thing with how the choruses and mods were panned. If I sent the effected side or didn't double check the panning, the output could sound weak washy and out of tune.  So, if a patch ever exhibited any of those qualities, the first thing I would look at was panning. In the end for me, it is way easier to send a summed mono.

                   

                  I like the dual amp to mono function through the mixer, because I can still use the mixer volume and pan to 'mix' the 2 amps to mono. It is like having a super active tone control.

                   

                  The other thing I wanted to mention. I took a PDF file of the HD manual on a thumb drive to Kinkos, and for $15.00 got a double side printed-spring bound copy of the manual with plastic cover and the whole thing. Well worth it to me. I don't like trying to study stuff on-line. You could get a 3 hole punched copy for less and stick it in a ring binder.

                   

                  Blessings Bro!

                   

                  strato..

          • pratikb Just Startin'
            pratikb
            142 posts since
            Dec 4, 2010
            Currently Being Moderated
            Oct 11, 2011 5:33 PM (in response to Stratotron)
            Re: HD500: PA vs Studio Direct... a baseline?

            Excellent advise..God Bless.

             

            Pratik

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