Currently Being ModeratedJan 7, 2013 11:27 PM (in response to citywalks)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
I must say I use different approach - I keep master volume of my DT25 (head) at 2 o'clock possition and I use mixer block to normalize volume between patches but at first I make rough normalization using amp volume knob and if after this my sound sound the same, I use mixer block do to fine tunings.
I would be afraid to set master volume on my DT25 to max because of possibly hurting my ears by unexpected high volumes of some patches.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 9:55 AM (in response to JanKupsa)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
I honestly don't see why Line 6 can't show a little more consideration and simply make the amp models all have approximately the same output level. Saving us users some time (can be A LOT of time!) would be highly appreciated. Almost seems to me they're designing IN this added frustration.
I'm really digging the dream rig's potential, but dreading the setup time to really have it ready for gigs.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 10:31 AM (in response to spankygtr)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
I don't think that's realistic due to the tube class utilization options.
From a completely modeled perspective I would agree, but not with regards to the DT's.
I could be wrong and I look forward to more educated responses.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 10:37 AM (in response to spankygtr)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
Your issue is a major reason why I eventually gave up on the Pod HD500. Dream Rig is a great concept, but poorly executed by Line6, IMO.
But the Vairax itself has volume/level differences, model to model, I suppose depending on the "modeled" output of the various simulations, etc. Have you taken that into account with your volume/level issue?
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 12:30 PM (in response to citywalks)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
normalizing the DT50 Voicings with an HDXXX is one of the challenging things to turn the rig into a real giging power engine.
The only option you have is to choose from different approaches of user from the L6-Forums. You will not get any detailed instructions from L6-staff on that (don't blame me for that).
My approach / experpience with DT50/212 , HD500 and JTV59 + JTV69 to level the different volumes:
1. In reality the real amps are DIFFERENT in volume and how they react on Master Volume and Volume setting knobs. L6 has modeled these amps as closely as they can to the originals. So a Fender Twin reverb (Voicing 1 on the DT50/25) is DIFFERENT in volume to a PARK-75 (Voicing 3 on the DT50 in reality and so in the DT50/25.
2. Turning the Master volume to max on the DT50/25 is bad idea to me: to drive some amp into very negative power section behaviour (and some not).
I definitely recommend setting the Master volume somewhere arpund 1-2 o' clock. With that setting ALL amps I am using generates sufficent power section saturation AND my clean amps (Fender Twin) stays clean. And playing any amp always at it limit can finally turn into damaging specific section in your amp. (amps always need some room to cover spikes).
3. The mixer volume in areas of -25 db will negatiively COLOR your tone. I do not think that this is helpful having a good tone. I have figured out that you can use the channel volume in a range of -7 to +5 db to ajust presets (for example between Rhytm and Solo) but not out of that range.
4. I recommend starting with your amp with the lowest gain. This is in the original DT50/25 voicing the Voicing I. set this amp to maximum for clean: Drive = 40% and amp Volume = 95%. Turn the mixer volume to 0%. You can use the Studio EQ (only the gain knob) to increase the overall gain level at the VERY end of your signal chain. This gains doesn't color to my ears.
5. Now this amp with the lowest gain is your reference for all others. Use always Pre amp models (what you are already doing). And use the standard cab/mic sims on. This is the correct starting point.
6. Leave the Master volume constantly for ALL your amps at 1-2 o'clock and adjust the volume between the amp with your Volume knob at the amp.
I don't recommend to go under 40% with the amp volume knob . Then coloration starts with some amps to my ears.
7. Buy yourself a good power attenuator to adjust to the VERY much too high volume at mastervolume 1-2 o'clock to an approprtiate level.
The channel mixer volume is NEVER a substituation for a power attenuator. And this a excellent investment for the future. Use one were you can have different OHM settings, so it is more variable.
8. Fine tune your presets with mixer volume in the range of -7db to +5db to reflect additional gain from effects in your signal chain or for a Lead preset (+ 7db compared to Rhytm is good to me).
9. Finally: accept that the real amps are reacting VERY DIFFERENT to Master volume and amp volume settings. Fopr example a Treadplate is going to saturate at a fairly low master volume level (9 o' clock) due to its aggressive pre amp section. The opposite is the case with a Marshal Plexi Lead 100 (master volume has to be set definetely above 12 o' clock to come into a power section driven saturation - and that is that creamy distortion sound which is the smart difference to modelled amp saturation which I am looking for).
Hope that helps and don't give up too early. The Rig is worth it.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 11:35 AM (in response to citywalks)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
I think your method would create noise and the possibility of distortion . By reducing the mixer volume to -29 and maxing the master you are basically pushing the brake and accelerator pedals at the same time. Also, since you've maxed the Master volume, how do you increase the overall volume of the amp if you need a bit more.
Here's what I do that makes things much easier:
- if there is a large difference in overall level between 2 amp models(the Twin Reverb is very low), I put the Tube Comp at the end of my effects chain.
- I set the Threshold to 100 and then use the level control to get the two amp models in the ballpark. Not only does it help match levels, but the Tube Comp doesn't color the sound other than adding a bit of tube warmth to the tone.
Hopefully this will alleviate some of the hand wringing about the different levels of amp models. I've talked to folks at Line 6 about this, and the party line is they model each amp "warts and all" according the actual gain of each preamp model.
I agree it would be more convenient to match the levels, but my workaround is easy for me. BTW, I'm gigging soley with the Dream Rig and love it. It does take a bit of time to dial things in, but I bet you could have 2-3 banks of patches set up in an hour or two.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 1:01 PM (in response to citywalks)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
How about throwing us less "enlightened" pro users a bone and giving us a few models that have been treated with a "wart remover"?
I could also go for an option to have alternative amp models free of 50 or 60 cycle hum. (what a subversive thought, but it just might make for a better sound, and isn't that the priority?)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 8, 2013 2:09 PM (in response to spankygtr)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
Line 6's corporate decision seems to be to model tube amps as accurately as possible and give you the most flexibility in creating "your" tone. If that's not what you're looking for, you probably bought the wrong product because the HD500 has many ways to screw things up. As far as the 50/60 cycle hum goes, some people think it's an integral part of a tube amps tone and effects the waveform of low frequencies. You can always dial it down if you don't like that effect.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 9, 2013 8:17 AM (in response to spankygtr)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
I found via USB measurements that the HD produces additional compression and at highl levels (>-6dB) distortion if the internal signal level exceeds -12dB(FS) between effects and amplifier models. I understand that not everyone can measure levels and in practice this would be pretty cumbersome anyway.
Ideally one would measure the guitar input level and adjust the gain of the first effect (or soon after) such that its output level is close to but does not exceed -12dB at maximum guitar volume/tone settings. If this is not possible (no equipment) you can experiment by comparing different input 2 settings (same or unused) to add or remove 6dB w/o any effect and amp models (just the mixer). With hot pickups you're probably better off using input 2 set to an unused port. This should get your guitar input signal into the -18 to -12dB range. Again measuring would be better and quicker, but you just need to live with what you have. If you hear distortion w/o effects and amps you need to lower your guitar input signal.
Next step is to add/enable your effects and amplifier settings. Do it one by one starting with the first one after your input stage. Make sure your volume does not change after you add your next model. Once you added 2 or 3, disable them all and compare whether you are still on track maintaining the same volume. This process basically assures that your HD internal signal level is about the same and less than the -12dB. Obviously you need to back off on amp channel volume if you have lots of Drive. Similar principle with effects. Move all models in front of mixer if you can (does not work well with dual amp tones as you run out of effects, oh well).
Adjust mixer to match volume differences between tones using different Amp types. Maybe add volume pedal after mixer in all tones so you can addjust final volume to venue (also recommend to keep DT at 1-2 o'clock as was said before).
If your music requires that you need different power amp gain (only possible with changing master volume) you probably cannot avoid an attenuator. As there are no MIDI controlled attenuators as far as I know you will have to manually fiddle between songs to get what you want.
Hope this helps a little,
Currently Being ModeratedJan 9, 2013 11:09 AM (in response to spankygtr)Re: Dream Rig Volume Normalization
No reason for getting cynical
If you read carefully and if you are willing / capable to go through a "pain phase", which everyone needs to go to turn that rig into a good working rig engine, you will find LOTS of very compromised, valuuable and constructive feedbacks in THIS thread from users.
But at the end the Dream Rig does not fit to everyones needs and capabilities.