Jun 30, 2012 5:02 PM
Is Your Pod 'Cutting Through' Live?
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I'm finding that I can get a lot of great tones for recording, or at home, but when I play live the Pod doesn't really cut through like a 'real' amp.
I was playing a gig last weekend and my son was using the POD HD into a Mesa 50/50 and 4x12, and I was just using my '75 Deluxe Reverb with a pedal board (compressor, Signa Drive, Flashback, Chorus). The Deluxe cut through the mix with so much more distinction. The notes were more defined and just had more life.
The Pod tones seemed to get buried, and the only way to get them out there was by juicing the volume, and that just seemed to muddle things up. The tones he was using sound great by themselves, but seem to get buried easily. We have spent a lot of time reading what meambobo and others do with EQ and have applied these techniques, but the POD, live, seems indistinct.
Any similar experiences? Thanks...
i guess the question i have to ask is how you're connecting pod to amp and how the pod's output is configured
Live: Pod 1/4" out's to Mesa 50/50 stereo power amp (2 6L6's/side) 1/4" in's...output set to combo, but using 'no cab' so it makes no difference. Mesa speaker outs to stereoized Line 6 DT50 4x12 cab.
Toneman, do you use the Pod live?
When I have newish tones I almost always have to knock off a hair or two of drive and add a hair of mids or treble...with clean tones, sometimes the compressor is tto much....really hard to say...My first thought would be maybe the tone is a little too mid scooped...just guessing Texxxxx...
Cutting through the mix is really very much dependent on getting the upper mids right. And often when set tones from scratch, those are the hardest to get right. The Deluxe Reverb makes it a little easier because there's no mid control, and having that chimy upper mid and treble that cuts through is just part of it's nature. Also, the Deluxe's cab, even though open backed, tends to be pretty directional. Any chance that you were just standing somewhere where you were getting blasted by it?
I've never used my POD with a power amp and cab setup live, but I have used it direct, and I don't find I have any more trouble cutting through than normally. It's just about finding tones that work in a given context.
Thanks, guys for your input.
At our most recent gig, my son and I were both playing guitar and both trading off on keys. When I swiched from keys to guitar, I was standing in the same position at the stage right keyboard. When my son went to play keys, it was easier for me to just take his guitar and trade places with him. During the night, I played keys on eight songs, and four songs each on my guitar rig ('66 Tele>'75 Deluxe Reverb) and four songs on my son's rig (Jimmie Vaughan Strat>above mentioned Pod Hd rack).
Yes, I was pretty much sitting on top of my Deluxe and the Pod was about 15 feet back, but the Pod just didn't seem as alive. The amp model for clean on the Pod is BF 'Lux Vibrato channel. In our practice studio, that setting sounds pretty close to my Deluxe, but live, and louder, I was really surprised at the difference in punch; my Deluxe having much more presence.
I usually don't switch between his gear and mine during shows, so it was especially obvious to me at this one. FWIW, we let the opening three piece band use our gear and their guitar player was using my Deluxe...it had the same presence at the back of the room as it did on stage. Clear as a bell.
I have encountered this phenomenom before with my Flextone III's. My son used to use this (with a 1x12 ext cab) and I loaned my little Blackheart BH15H with 1x12 to another guitar player in his band. In an auditorium, the Blackheart cut through much better. Even when my son goosed the 150W of Flextone, you could hear the 15W Blackheart shimmering through very clearly.
I am beginning to believe that modleing gear is great for recording, but something about it doesn't have presence at live volumes...like loud, live volumes. It gets very loud, but I don't get that shimmering distinct definition that my Fenders get.
I can never tell how many people in this forum use their Pod live, or if most are used for recording. It seems to me most of the patches that are uploaded to CustomTone, or recommended here, are set up for recording. Just my impression...
I've done both, but I've actually played live a lot more than I've recorded. The split is probably something like 95% to 5%. I've played live with the PODs going direct, and I've had a few Line 6 amps - the Duoverb, Spider Valve, and no the DT-25. I do appreciate a good tube amp, and I think that overall it's a little easier to get a tube amp to cut through. But I definitely don't think it's impossible with a modeler. Like I said before, though, I've never used a separate power amp and cab setup like you're using, so I can't really make a comparison there. Have you tried your setup with another preamp to get a comparison?
Initially, I had a 300W solid state power amp with my HD 500...can't remember the model. That sounded pretty lifeless and the Mesa w/6L6's sounds much livelier and warmer. I sold the HD 500 and got a Pro, instead.
Thanks for the input, Phil.
I would experiement using the pre- version of the models. I find them to be a little brighter-more presence. You may also need to dial up the signal with the channel and or Master Volume to really push the tubes in the 50/50. I've played exclusively live with my HD since it was released. Playing both direct and DT-50 to a mic'd Blackeart 1x12. Both ways I've had no problem cutting through and having a good sound (at least when the FOH sound guy was good). I'm mostly playing about 1500-2000 seat venues so I've got what I need dialed in pretty good. I'd also suggest getting away from the stereo patches and go mono. You may have some phase canceling which is cutting some of your frequencies. There's really no point if you are going through a 4x12 to be in stereo. If it were 2 2x12's spread on opposite sides of the stage then you might get a true stereo feeling. But even with that if you're going through a PA of any sorts you're only going to be mono in 99% of cases. I really would be surprised if this is the reason it lacked punch. I go $2 on it! LOL
Thanks, Dave-
Initially I thought stereo patches would be cool, but realized they were pointless early on for the reasons you mention. I use the setero cab just to have a load on both channels of my Mesa tube power amp. Patches are mono and L goes into channel A on the Mesa and R goes into channel B.
Glad to hear you are able to use your Pod live with such good results. It gives me hope.
I seem to end up using the Pre models on the high gain amps, and I mostly use the Treadplate. I seem to end up using Full models on the clean amps and mostly use the BF 'Lux Vib. I use 'No Cab' mostly, too.
I appreciate the feedback.
Bump...just checking to see if there is anymore input on this subject.
I had a gig today, again with my son, and his '66 Vibrolux killed my Hd Pro for clarity and punch.
Maybe my patches just suck...lol. On the clean stuff, I was OK, but the gainy tones were buried, yet loud at the same time!
You should try to tweak with your band/son playing your patch(es) and tweak to your ear. Maybe try a mid-focus EQ after the POD mixer?
Typically what sounds great by yourself doesn't work in a group. Also you may have the right tone and the other players are stepping you. Or a combination of the two. Guitars needs to leave the bass frequencies to the bass players and vice versa. Also avoid the muddy mid frequencies such as 200 to as high as 600. Not saying you need to kill these frequencies but be aware that if you feel the sound is buried and not cutting through, you may need to reduce some of these frequencies.
Reverb will give you a distant buried tone where as delays bring you more up front but can still bury the sound if too much is used. Layering compressors before and after the amp model can help punch through the mix too.
Thanks for your suggetsions, Geeky and Joel...
I played around with the mid focus and was working on the mids, also, Joel. You guys are right, of course, when you say that what sounds good at home by myself sounds completely different in a live band mix.
I think I am going to try what I do with my tube amps; work with the OD options that the HD has and try the various supplied distortion boxes in front of my clean sound that I am VERY happy with. Maybe one or more of the pedals in conjunction with the Clean will get me what I want, which is a heavy, thick OD that doesn't sound muddled or muffled. I can get the sound normally with a cheap-a$$ Boss DS-1 (sad, after all the high-end pedals I have bought chasing tone!) and an old Fender amp, rolling off the highs on a Tele or Strat to adjust the amount of 'creaminess'. I know many of you play live, big gigs in pretty heavy bands and are happy with the High Gain amps in the HD.
I also don't think I have the best ears for discerning the subtlties between many of the high gain amps. A lot of them seem extremely similar to me. 60 year old ears that have played thousands of gigs over the last 45 years...I think I may have lost a bit of the high end in my hearing...![]()
http://line6.com/customtone/tone/222903/
This is the patch I use most of the time live into the effect return of a pair Marshall amps playing in a Sabbath Tribute band. It might give you some ideas.
btw - I'm 53 and understand the high end hearing loss...
Hey Texxxxx...on the same Output Option screen where the "focus" option is, you'll see options for the lows & highs...factory default is -49 & -50 respectively. Both will KILL your output tone, especially the high being set at -50...no cut through at all. I've set both lows & highs to "flat". Did you check those 2 settings?
Yes, preciousgeorge, I do see those settings for 'combo front' and 'stack front', but I don't use either of those. I go straight into a Mesa 50/50 power amp and use 'combo power amp' for my patches that use a cab. Thanks, though!
I play my HD 500 Live into the return of my Mesa Stiletto. It took a while and a ton of playing around as I had similar issues that you are describing get my guitar to cut through. You point about volume nailed it on the nose, I can always turn up but it never sat in the live mix right. My band rarely plays in a place where we run anything but vocals and kick drum through the PA so rely mostly on stage volume for monitoring and for the audience. Some of these things have already been mentioned but I thought I'd at least add my steps:
1. Find the sweet spot between the master level of the POD and the power amp. I found I get the best presence with my power amp cranked but it is simply too loud if I have it turned up 100% at 100watts with the Pod Master also dimed. My solution was to switch to 50watt mode and I run the output of the power amp at about 80% and the POD at 75%. When you hit it right you get those sweet chimey, punchy cleans and pretty grinding distortion. At the sweet spot you really hear the difference between the amp models too.
2. For patches being used at stage volume use the pre amp only models, cab sims off
3. Try stack power amp - it cleans up the low end a little better since it's expecting that beef to come from the 4x12 Also if you still have the factory presets installed check out the set list for the DT25/50 - they have a bunch of presets already setup for low volume and high volume with just the amps without a lot of fluff. Makes it real quick to flip through the different amps. These were probably tweaked for the DTs but since you are basically running a DT type setup (just with fixed tube topology) they are good starting points.
I've found with this setup I can pretty much switch to any pre amp and get a useable tone without tweaking anything or adding a zillion eq stomps.
Thanks for the detailed suggestions, dbagchee!
I will give those ideas a try tomorow. I have been using pres and no cab for quite a while, but never stack power amp or those amp/HD volume settings. My Mesa 50/50 has a low (half) power mode, also. I still have the factory presets (compulsive archiver), and will try those again, too.
I have come to find in my many years of doing sound that there is a fine line between what sounds good alone and what sounds good in the mix. I have heard guitar and amp combinations that sound like absolute *** when played alone, but as soon as the band comes in it sounds like gold. If you listen really close to many of your favorite recordings and to the tone of each instrument, you will quickly find that each one is pretty unrealistic. It has to be that way in order to make it all fit. There isn't as much bass as is perceived and the mids are very muted in order to get the vocals on top. In the live world things are a bit bigger and rounder. The nice studio like sound you shoot for at home just doesn't always translate on the stage. You can get any amp to cut like a hot knife through butter, it just may not sound as good when you do it?
I find that every venue is different and each one will require a slightly different EQ for each instrument. I start with the lows and get as little as possible before it sounds too thin. You don't want to walk all over the bass guitar. But you don't want to be so thin that you are set apart either. The low end registers should meld together, but not create a huge build up of low end when played together. Next is the mids and this is the most important part. Too much and you get a nasally, honky and harsh sound and not definition may start to go away. Too little and you get buried in the mix and you lose your spot in the mix. You want to get as little as is needed to be apparent in the mix, but not so much that you walk on the vocals or keys. The highs are a matter of taste. There is an old saying that brightness is next to godliness............. This is where your true presence comes in. Too little highs and you have no note definition and it will be hard to distinguish chords and soloing. Too high and your going to pierce peoples ears. When highs are to high, they tend to get ice picky and every note just sounds the same with a high pitch eeeeeee in your ear every time. Solos will destroyed if the highs are too much as it just sound so disruptive. You want to have just enough highs to cut, but not soo much that that you start to hear every little noise the guitar makes pinned to your head. It's all about balance. And this balance is a team effort. It takes a realistic effort from everyone in the band to acquire a sound that melds together. If everybody does a good job shaping their sound so that everyone can fit in the sonic palette, you will be full of win.
Great explanation, lukegels!
I never really thought of the mix in that way...thanks...
Great tips! The other struggle I've had in with ear plugs and without. Finding a balance where I can still here myself with plugs in has always been challenging.
Stay in the mix and in the know.
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