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1415 Views 81 Replies Latest reply: Apr 21, 2013 8:09 AM by spikey RSS
whiteop Just Startin' 415 posts since
Dec 5, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Feb 10, 2013 5:10 AM

Blown Power Transformer Club

Just wondered how many if you guys have experienced the Ill-fated "blown power transformer" problem with DT-25 and DT-50's that Line 6 won't acknowledge because of the cost it would require to fix it?

  • jeffwatt Just Startin' 31 posts since
    Jan 29, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 14, 2013 10:35 AM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    I'm a not-so-proud member of this club. After almost of year of regular use, my DT-50 212 started blowing fuses mid-December. It came back from servicing six weeks later, with--you guessed it--a new power transformer. Unfortunately, the amp had also returned with a nasty buzzy hum across all topologies--a problem the music store is trying to resolve to this day. I've been two months without it at this point... frustrating, to say the least!

  • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
    Dec 24, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2013 6:48 AM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    I'm a member.  I've had the amp for over a year.  To say I've gotten 20 hours of play out of it is an exorbidant estimate.

     

    Very sad.

  • hzpyzs Just Startin' 27 posts since
    Apr 17, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 18, 2013 8:46 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    Yes I am a member as well. I was hoping this was only a DT50 issue ? Do DT25's have this issue as well ? Line 6 apparently offered to ship my service center a used tranformer from another amp in for repairs or ship me a new one. Either one was $128 my cost.  I am out of warranty, but, sending me a used part , because they know they have a issue, for free, would have been world class. Offering to send me a used one, right now,  for $128, in case I really needed it for a gig, was nice. But I will pass ... Although since it is pretty clear that the problem has not been addressed, I am just getting the same part that failed once already.

     

    I had some hours on mine, at ;east 200.  I was thinking tubes where in my near future, but wasn't thinking about this type of thing.  I was hoping having a DT25 and a DT50 2x12 meant I wouldn't need to think about buying any amps for, well many many years. Time will tell I guess.

     

    So I lost out on the Guitar Port, last year. Which I thought was really a cool pratice/learning tool, and made me Line 6 fan. I have had my DT25 in the shop twice (tubes, no suprise) and now I am hearing my beloved DT's might have transformer issues. I lost faith in Fender amps over issues with the Mustang series and how they handled it. Hopefully Line 6 does a better job addressing this issue. A faulty batch of tranformers or issues with a supplier would seem easy enough to fix to a layman. Rumour was on the Fender boards that the fizz issues many people had (myself included) were with the design and therefore could not be easily addressed. Fender released a statement that in summary said, technology moves forward, we feel these amps are still a good value and please consider our new tube based modeling amp if your not happy. People went nuts and I sold mine.

    I went with a DT50 which I found a good choice and a good value considering it's flexibility. It's not Line 6's first tube based modeling amp is what I was thinking. But here I am again wondering what the root cause of a issue at least several people are having is. The fact that Line 6 is out tranformers at the moment  and couldn't provide a eta, is not all that encouraging. Neither is the fact that  they offered me a used part. Since that would indicate to me that the new part will be no different then the one I had or the ones already in their shop.

      • talwilkins Just Startin' 79 posts since
        Apr 19, 2011
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 20, 2013 6:42 AM (in response to whiteop)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        I've had my DT-25 for about half a year now without problems, using it with my POD HD 500. I hope it stays that way but I am worried.

        If found that if I leave it on standby for a couple of minutes (maybe one is enough) it doesn't pop when I turn it of.

        I also have made sure I don't swith from class A to A/B all the time because that also gives a pop. I did this by changing two of the amps I use to A/B and adjusted the volume.

          • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
            Dec 24, 2011
            Currently Being Moderated
            Feb 28, 2013 6:48 AM (in response to whiteop)
            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

            CONFIRMED!

             

            I am a member.  The repair facility advises me the part will not ship until Mid-April.

             

            That works out to a minimum of 2 months downtime.

             

            OUTSTANDING!

            • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
              Dec 24, 2011
              Currently Being Moderated
              Feb 28, 2013 10:59 AM (in response to PDKTDK)
              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

              You want to really laugh?!?!?

               

              I just ordered another.

               

              $1000 for a new unit - $155 for a 2 year warranty

              • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                Jan 24, 2007
                Currently Being Moderated
                Mar 1, 2013 9:13 AM (in response to PDKTDK)
                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                I am curious, how many folks in the club have been using attenuators?...

                 

                It really stinks to blow a power tranny and my own thought is that it is likely a batch of defectives....But that is just a guess based on no good data at all...

                • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                  Dec 24, 2011
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Mar 1, 2013 10:22 AM (in response to spaceatl)
                  Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                  I started using the Dr. Z Airbrake attentuator just over a month before.

                   

                  Set the master between 1-2:00

                • jeffwatt Just Startin' 31 posts since
                  Jan 29, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Mar 1, 2013 5:25 PM (in response to spaceatl)
                  Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                  I had been using a Weber Mass Lite 100W since last March (10 months before experiencing issues with the fuse and power transformer). Master between 10-11:00.

                        • innovine Just Startin' 31 posts since
                          Feb 14, 2012
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Mar 5, 2013 12:13 AM (in response to whiteop)
                          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                          You were complaining about your amp way back when the power transformer blew for the first and second times too. Makes me wonder why you keep on going and getting it serviced. Just get rid of it already and stop moaning and threatening lawsuits *yawn*

                            • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                              Dec 24, 2011
                              Currently Being Moderated
                              Mar 5, 2013 5:22 AM (in response to whiteop)
                              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                              I created a ticket basically giving L6 the opportunity to contribute in some way to a positive outcome.

                               

                              "Request:     If I have gotten 30 hours of use I would be surprised. I called your tech support last week and they told me to have the tubes checked. The L6 approved service center confirms blown power transformer. It's currently at (L6 approved) AMP services - 561 333 0335 address 3111 Fortune Way - Wellington Florida 33414 My extended GC warranty does not have this place approved but I wanted to use an L6 approved firm. They said the part will not ship until mid-april. I went ahead and ordered a replacement amp from GC - another DT50 112. This is in good faith to L6. I do hope, even though my warranty with you is recently expired, there can be some good faith action on your part. As you can see I use many of your products. Let me know - Peter K."

                            • innovine Just Startin' 31 posts since
                              Feb 14, 2012
                              Currently Being Moderated
                              Mar 5, 2013 7:53 AM (in response to whiteop)
                              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                              Sorry if my tone was harsh.

                               

                              Do you often turn the amp selection control on the hd500 to cycle through the different models? This makes my dt25 click and pop as it changes topologies, and i am wondering if it stresses the amp.. (the fact that your fouth blew so soon suggests something else is wrong in the amp, some bit they didnt replace when servicing it.

                        • hzpyzs Just Startin' 27 posts since
                          Apr 17, 2007
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Mar 5, 2013 5:37 PM (in response to whiteop)
                          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                          This is not sounding good at all. I can't understand how after 4 attempts at fixing whitetop's amp, it dies after 30 minutes. They should of tested the crap out that thing. I hate internet bashing of comapnies and products on forums, I just usualy take my dollars elsewhere. I know nothing about what really goes on in any amp, even less about a DT50, but you would have too think something is going on slightly different with a amp that eats 4 transformers, other than just iffy parts. Hopefully Line 6 will make this right for you brother. I am lucky enough to have another amp for jamming and POD Farm to practice with, but if my DT50, (down for upto 3 months waiting for a transformer) was actually needed, I would be seriously thinking about looking at other companies.

  • Zhorell Just Startin' 68 posts since
    May 12, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 4, 2013 10:19 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    What could have cause this blowing up tranny problem? Bogner's Power Amp design toggle Class A/AB & Pent/Triod switching?

  • cw0401 Just Startin' 10 posts since
    Aug 15, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 6, 2013 8:30 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    Hi,

     

    I managed to blow my DT25 without even getting to play it and I fully admit it was all my fault.   Plugged the 120v into a 240v power point (Australia).  

     

    Excuse my ignorance but does the power transformer have to be replaced by a service centre?   Can you use another power transformer or does it have to be the same type as the one in the Amp.   IE is there no 'generic' type that you can get?

     

    If you do have to get it from Line 6 and its out of warrantee or not covered, can you get it sent to you and you fix it yourself or do you have to send it to a service center for them to do it?

     

    Regards

     

    CW

  • mikey7 Just Startin' 18 posts since
    Jul 27, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 7, 2013 4:03 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    ME TOO............My DT 50 2X12 blew the power transformer about 5 mos out of warranty.

    It cost $214 to fix plus 180 miles round trip drive to closest service center (picked it up last Saturday).

    I like the tones of the DT and it works (for now), BUT I think I'm done. I'm considering swapping it out

    for a pair of Tech 21 PE60's.

     

    Does anybody here have any thoughts on that before I take the plunge? I posted on this

    issue 2 days ago, and didn't receive a single comment.

    • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
      Dec 22, 2006
      Currently Being Moderated
      Mar 7, 2013 5:14 PM (in response to mikey7)
      Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

      i wouldn't do it... .no how no way... big difference between solid state vs tube...

      sure SS might have better reliability... but i'd rather deal with maintenance and tone on a tube amp.

        • innovine Just Startin' 31 posts since
          Feb 14, 2012
          Currently Being Moderated
          Mar 8, 2013 12:32 AM (in response to whiteop)
          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

          FYI I mentioned this to line6 technical support. They denied any problem and said if I use the amp as intended I wont have any issues. They suggest that people with defects are misusing the amp. Flipping both power and standby switch to ON at the same time was quoted as an example of misuse.

            • innovine Just Startin' 31 posts since
              Feb 14, 2012
              Currently Being Moderated
              Mar 8, 2013 7:20 AM (in response to whiteop)
              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

              Standby switch is there to protect your tubes. The main switch enables power to the tubes heaters, so you should wait 10-20 secs for them to warm up before switching the standby switch (enabling amplification by engaging the high voltage across the tubes). I've no idea if this would affect the power transformer though, I'm just relaying what i heard from line6 in case its relevant.

          • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
            Dec 24, 2011
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 8, 2013 8:58 AM (in response to innovine)
            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

            Many of us have been playing, performing, writing and recording for many years.

             

            Some folks have a lot of nerve.

            • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
              Jan 24, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Mar 8, 2013 12:06 PM (in response to PDKTDK)
              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

              I have been studying up since you guys starting the thread on this...There are a few other causes outside it simple being a defective power tranny that I have been trying to understand better...

               

              Faulty Power Filter Capa or Faulty rectifier(s) is what I keep coming back around to...The operation of  the rectifier chages a bit between Class A and AB (current is basically at max in class A and current track the level in AB), so there could be two rectifiers I suppose....Anyway, if a rectifier fails shorted, it can kill the power filter caps...or the power filter cap is bad to start with as that can cause the rectifier to get hit with too much current, short out and take the tranny with it...sorta like a little terrorist...

               

              But the more I think on this the more I think about the Power Filter Caps...Those fail two ways....Explode, burn and smoke and take your tranny out...Or they just quietly overload the power tranny...

              • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                Dec 24, 2011
                Currently Being Moderated
                Mar 9, 2013 8:05 AM (in response to spaceatl)
                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                I've been in close contact with the servicing company.  I forwarded this info on.

                 

                Thanks a lot.

                 

                Line 6/Andrew has assured me they will take care of this and I am grateful.

                 

                I got my backup DT50 112 Thursday, so I'm back in business!

                  • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                    Dec 24, 2011
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Mar 11, 2013 11:24 AM (in response to whiteop)
                    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                    I didn't get my amp back. The part won't even be in until mid April.

                     

                    I bought another one. LOL

                  • mikey7 Just Startin' 18 posts since
                    Jul 27, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Mar 18, 2013 5:06 PM (in response to whiteop)
                    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                    This is a club I'll be glad to quit. I moved forward and made the switch. I'm no longer am a DT 50 owner. A pair of Tech 21 Power Engine 60s is on a UPS truck bound for my house, and I have to say I'm looking forward to it. I think the concept of the DT is great, but concepts and ideas without reliability aren't enough for me. Not worth the gamble any more. Whiteop's 3 time power tranny failure was just the encouragement I needed, after my own power transformer failed.

  • Tboneous Just Startin' 12 posts since
    Mar 5, 2013
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 25, 2013 5:51 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    I submitted a support ticket asking about this Transformer issue.

    Belowis what I wrote and below that is the responce from Line 6.

     

    "What is the issue with the dt50 defective power transformer. There are a lot of posts from angry customers yet no response from Line6. I can not afford to have my amp suddenly stop working at a show. What has line 6 done to fix this problem?"

     

     

    "Hello,

     

    An email was sent out to registered owners of the DT50 amplifiers the fell within a certain serial number range with a potential problem.  Looking at your account, your amplifier was not affected by this so you should not worry about having a defective amplifier.  We only notified registered customers that fall within the range where they may encounter a problem.

     

    Regards,"

     

    I will leave out the Line 6 persons signature at this point. But if my DT50 starts down this road, I will put him/her on BLAST!

     

    I find the use of the words "potential problem"interesting.  For those DT owners who are STILL without an amplifier and for those who are out of money as well, the problem is far from a "potential" problem! It is a real problem!

     

    Did any of the posters in this thread receive this email?

     

    I got my DT50 this month and will keep a close eye on it! Will keep you posted

      • Tboneous Just Startin' 12 posts since
        Mar 5, 2013
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 27, 2013 2:31 PM (in response to whiteop)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        I would be curious to know if anyone received an email stating that their DT amplifiers serial number falls into a range of potentially bad amplifiers PRIOR to their amp dying. That would show that Line 6 is a proactive company that has its customers better interests at heart.

  • Tboneous Just Startin' 12 posts since
    Mar 5, 2013
    Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 28, 2013 10:59 PM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    In the interest of gathering an accurate count of folks with blown transformers I would like to open this post to those who DON'T have blown transformers as well. I think it would be unfair to the many folks who would like to make an informed decision on the DT series amps to only hear from the 7 or so owners who have posted in this thread their individual (yet no less frustrating) experiences with their amps. In other words, if there are 1000 owners of DT amps and 7 have had problems, one might move forward in their purchase of a DT amp. But if, of the 1000 DT owners, 900 have experienced problems, that's another story all together!

     

    I hope this makes sense!

     

    T

      • Tboneous Just Startin' 12 posts since
        Mar 5, 2013
        Currently Being Moderated
        Mar 29, 2013 9:00 AM (in response to whiteop)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        Well I am hoping I can fall into the "if it happens to me" rather than the "when it happens to me" catagory. That said, if/when it happens to me, you're right, I'll be postin' my little fingers off! I guess what I am attempting to offer is this: I am sure that there are a lot of folks with bad transformers and other curious issuses. For someone researching whether or not they should purchase a DT amp however, they are trying to answer the question, "is this transformer issue indicative of all of the DT amps or is this an anomaly?" You can't know that by only hearing from those who have experienced problems. There is no post for those who don't have blown transformers. Maybe there needs to be one so we can accurately compare those with issues and those without. I am hoping that there are a great many more DT owners out there without amp issues than there are with amp issues.

         

        It's good to hear that Line 6 is treating you right!

    • tinman1 Just Startin' 26 posts since
      Jun 1, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      Apr 5, 2013 10:59 PM (in response to Tboneous)
      Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

      Agreed, in scientific research terms this is called bias. When it comes to these sorts of forums it can have a big influence on prospective owners.

       

      I've had a DT25 for over 18 months now. I changed the power tubes after 6 months but that's a valve issue and like light bulbs they all need replaced sooner or later.

       

      No technical problems at all since switching to a couple of JJ tesla EL84s. Crackling and popping before the switch. I didn't have the amp re-biased which hasn't seemed to make a difference.

      • beascott Just Startin' 11 posts since
        Sep 1, 2010
        Currently Being Moderated
        Apr 6, 2013 8:41 AM (in response to tinman1)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        Just joined the club about 11 days ago.  As my sound disappeared without any fanfare, I felt strangely accepting.  I was expecting this to happen to my DT50 212 after reading the forums here.  It is funny, I wanted to join this thread in order to suggest that I was an owner with a working power transformer.  Then, pffffffffttttt!   I had received the recall notice just a week or so before the DT50 died.  To their credit, L6 was incredibly efficient in providing a shipping label so that I could send it off for repair.  It is in Calabasas, CA as I write this.  Only time will tell if the recall produces the reliability any owner would want.  I love this amp.  I don't lile it when it is silenced.  I'll post again when the amp comes back.

        • mikeywright Just Startin' 2 posts since
          Aug 29, 2006
          Currently Being Moderated
          Apr 17, 2013 11:52 PM (in response to beascott)
          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

          I'm a registered Line 6 DT50 owner and did not receive an email notification. I too have experienced the infamous power transformer failure and am waiting on my amp to be repaired. Can anyone share the content of the notification and the serial number range Line 6 identified as having power transformer issues. Thanks.

      • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
        Dec 24, 2011
        Currently Being Moderated
        Apr 8, 2013 8:06 AM (in response to tinman1)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        I am a huge proponent of the amp and the company.

         

        While my unit is in the shop (going on 2 months now) I bought another.

         

        There's no hatred here.  I am a huge fan of Line6 and what they do.

  • beascott Just Startin' 11 posts since
    Sep 1, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 7, 2013 8:22 AM (in response to whiteop)
    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

    whiteop, when did you get your new DT50?  Congratulations on dumping the lemon that you had.  I don't know how you could stand to go through that process.  It says something about your ability to persist.  Additionally, it may attest to your love of the tones you are getting.  How was the decision made to replace your original amp?

      • beascott Just Startin' 11 posts since
        Sep 1, 2010
        Currently Being Moderated
        Apr 8, 2013 11:46 AM (in response to whiteop)
        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

        Great to hear that your persistence has paid off and produced a positive outcome.  I have to agree, Ashley @ Customer Support is outstanding!

        • beascott Just Startin' 11 posts since
          Sep 1, 2010
          Currently Being Moderated
          Apr 11, 2013 11:23 AM (in response to beascott)
          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

          Well, UPS damaged my DT50 212 in transit to Calabasas, CA.  Fortunately, I had a local UPS Store pack the amp.  Meanwhile, Line 6 reported me that UPS had denied a claim due to insufficient packaging.  They supplied me with photos of the damage.  The cabinet was significantly cracked.  The box was clearly damageedon the exterior.  They offered to do the tech bulletin repair.  Additionally, I was told they might be able to replace the cab for a cost, of course.  However, Line 6 never filed the claim and accepted a clearly damaged package?!?!?!   This seemed to be far less than forthright.  I filed a UPS claim this morning.  The fact that thr UPS Store packaged the item is clearly to my advantage.  This has been very frustrating, to be sure.  If you have to ship an amp for Tech bulletin 59 repair, I would suggest having UPS do the packing.

          • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
            Dec 22, 2006
            Currently Being Moderated
            Apr 13, 2013 6:37 PM (in response to beascott)
            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

            I actually removed the tubes and amp chassis and only sent that for the fix.

            (i did send the tubes, so they could be tested and used for troubleshooting any other issues)

            saved a few bucks on shipping and lowered the possibility of damage.

            I'd heard that others had issue with the tolex, so i didn't want to chance it anyway.

            • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
              Feb 1, 2007
              Currently Being Moderated
              Apr 13, 2013 4:21 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

              So you had one blow up on you too Zap? Sorry to hear that, for everyone involved.

               

              I am curious, how many folks in the club have been using attenuators?...

               

              The question was asked above , (but not really answered to my liking) so I'll ask it again.

               

              How many of you (when your amp blew up), were actually using attenuators?

              • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
                Dec 22, 2006
                Currently Being Moderated
                Apr 13, 2013 6:36 PM (in response to spikey)
                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                mine just went off from standby mode and wouldn't come back on... never used an attenuator.

              • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                Dec 24, 2011
                Currently Being Moderated
                Apr 14, 2013 7:30 AM (in response to spikey)
                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                I always use an attenuator.

                • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                  Feb 1, 2007
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Apr 14, 2013 9:00 AM (in response to PDKTDK)
                  Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                  Ok well thats 50/50 so far...  ; P

                   

                  Im only asking because of the question posed above, as in id like to know what failed inside the amp, and if it had "anything" to do with using an attenuator ?

                   

                  Im also assuming that because Line 6 has issued a recall on some of the earlier DT-50's, that it has "nothing" to do with using an attenuator.

                   

                  And so if that is the case, Im also wondering why Spaceati even ask that question???

                   

                  Space?

                  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                    Jan 24, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Apr 14, 2013 1:47 PM (in response to spikey)
                    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                    Any attenuator on any amplifier causes the amplifier to operate closer to upper end tolerances of the design, parts, tubes...A proper transformer shoud outlast the amplifier...decades...I was only curious about the use of an attenuator because I it seems like it could reveal the defect sooner than running without one...hard to know though...

                    • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                      Feb 1, 2007
                      Currently Being Moderated
                      Apr 15, 2013 8:01 AM (in response to spaceatl)
                      Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                      Im afraid i cant agree about the attenuator. If the attenuator matches the impedance electrically with the wattage headroom, and matching the loads of a real cabinet ohms wise, then just how can it make the amp work closer to the end tolerances of its design?  It cant. This is the way not only guitar amps work, but all sorts of transmitters producing thousands of watts into a dummy load for testing purposes (Im also an FCC extra class ham radio operator and also hold a General Radio Telephone ticket). So I know about matching loads on various transmitters, and if its done correctly with good parts, the guitar amp head knows no difference from the cabinet.

                      • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
                        Dec 22, 2006
                        Currently Being Moderated
                        Apr 15, 2013 7:08 AM (in response to spikey)
                        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                        i'm not any sort of electronic genius...

                        but i can buy the idea that runinng an amp at a higher volume would wear the internals especially the tubes faster than running it at a lower volume.

                        the attenuator only affects the feed to the speaker, but essentially the amp would be running hotter etc...

                         

                        i think that's what space is getting at... and logically it sounds right to me...

                        • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                          Feb 1, 2007
                          Currently Being Moderated
                          Apr 15, 2013 8:07 AM (in response to TheRealZap)
                          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                          The amp running at higher volumes using a cabinet, or an attenuator,  would have the same results on said amp Zap. The amp would run no hotter using an attenuator (or a speaker cab) when both output impedances are matched evenly. Its an old wives tale to think otherwise. If however you do not use a good attenuator or a good speaker to match the load, then all bets are off.... but all speakers, and all attenuators are not made equal, and to lump them all together is just not logical. I know what Space was getting at Zap, and I have to disagree... ; )

                          • PDKTDK Just Startin' 100 posts since
                            Dec 24, 2011
                            Currently Being Moderated
                            Apr 15, 2013 9:03 AM (in response to spikey)
                            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                            I keep my master anywhere from 10 to 2 o'clock.  I think it's pretty reasonable an expectation to expect consistency/performance at those levels.

                            • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                              Feb 1, 2007
                              Currently Being Moderated
                              Apr 15, 2013 8:09 PM (in response to PDKTDK)
                              Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                              Yes PDK thats reasonable to expect the amp to act normally as long as the output impedance (load) is correct for the amp (using an attenuator or straight to a cab).

                               

                              Here's 2 flat statements in order Ill stand behind, and I dislike flat statements for the most part...

                               

                              1.  Once the amp is "electrically satisfied" by presenting the proper output load impedance and wattage handling for the amplifier, it will perform as its supposed to (unless there was a design problem in the amp in the first place).

                               

                              2. You can acheive this output impedance match with a speaker cabinet and/or good attenuator, used correctly.

                               

                               

                              But like anything else used incorrectly, of course this would cause issues. If your afraid of an attenuator or dont want to bother hooking one up then dont buy one. But please dont tell me they cause damage when used correctly, cause in most cases it just aint so....

                              • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                                Jan 24, 2007
                                Currently Being Moderated
                                Apr 16, 2013 9:09 AM (in response to spikey)
                                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                I am not a Ham radio head, but I do own a unicorn ranch...

                                 

                                load impedance on a tube amp doesn't matter so much if it's too low...It's when it's too high (or infinite (no load)) when you have to worry about the flyback current....You posts seems to allude the behaviors of SS design...sorry, if I am misunderstanding you...

                                • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                                  Feb 1, 2007
                                  Currently Being Moderated
                                  Apr 17, 2013 3:01 PM (in response to spaceatl)
                                  Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                  spaceatl wrote:

                                   

                                  I am not a Ham radio head, but I do own a unicorn ranch...

                                   

                                  load impedance on a tube amp doesn't matter so much if it's too low...It's when it's too high (or infinite (no load)) when you have to worry about the flyback current....You posts seems to allude the behaviors of SS design...sorry, if I am misunderstanding you...

                                  Well I dont know what it takes to own and run a unicorn ranch, other than maybe some good peyote ; ), but to hold an FCC Extra Class Amateur Radio ticket involves passing 5 different tests, all harder as you go from novice, techician, general, advanced and then Extra Class. And When I took the test I also had to pass a 20 wpm Morse code exam as well. Not easy. The general Radio-Telephone ticket math I took and passed was about the same level as the Advance test was.... Anyway, back to the topic... What Im saying to you Space, is that you made a flat statement above that in using an attenuator, that we would all be running our amps harder (operate closer to upper end tolerances of the design, parts, tubes) than if we were to just be using a standard speaker cab. I disagreed with you because that is simply not the case. All attenuators, amps and cabinets are not made equal, and to lump them all together is just not fair or logical, or even correct. Either a tube head or solid state head (and I was mainly thinking tube above) will not run any harder, or hotter or blow up any faster if the output load impedance, and wattage requirements for the head are met using a good attenuator, and/or speaker cab (and good speaker cable). Thats the way it works. If these requirements are not met then of course it will run harder, but thats not what I think you were saying... Electrically speaking the amp wont know the difference (correct load= attenuator and/or speaker) , and no over current or mismatch will occur, and the head will work as designed being fat dumb and happy IF these requirements are met. Thats a fact. You and others may not trust in using them and I understand that, but that doesnt make them a bad product used correctly. And, I also point out that had Line 6 thought for a second that the majority of their amp problems had been caused by the users using attenuators, they would not have honored any warranties, OR would they have offered up any recalls, and rightly so..... Is that understandable? Peace Brother... ; )

                                  • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                                    Jan 24, 2007
                                    Currently Being Moderated
                                    Apr 18, 2013 6:09 AM (in response to spikey)
                                    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                    I should have clarified....The only point I was trying to make is that with or without an attenuator, the higher the master volume the more current that is passing though the amplifier. It seems likely to me that when an attenuator is used, the amplifier is likely running at a higher volume than when an attenuator is not used....When more current is passing though the circuit, this tends to reveal isssues with components that could be out of tolerance or striaight out defective...Hence, using an attenuator might reveal something like this a little sooner...Not because it is an attenuator (it's just a load), but because the power amp is likely passing more current that it would be without one...

                                    • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
                                      Dec 22, 2006
                                      Currently Being Moderated
                                      Apr 18, 2013 6:21 AM (in response to spaceatl)
                                      Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                      that's what i always understood you to be saying and accept as a reasonable conclusion.

                                       

                                      kind of like the light bulb that burns brighter burns quicker...

                                      how are things at the ranch?

                                      http://www.unicornranch.org/

                                      • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                                        Feb 1, 2007
                                        Currently Being Moderated
                                        Apr 18, 2013 6:10 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
                                        Re: Blown Power Transformer Club


                                        TheRealZap wrote:

                                         

                                        that's what i always understood you to be saying and accept as a reasonable conclusion.

                                         

                                        kind of like the light bulb that burns brighter burns quicker...

                                        how are things at the ranch?

                                        http://www.unicornranch.org/

                                        Well Zap Im kinda mad at you for not telling me you knew all this stuff to begin with ...

                                         

                                        Space glad you clarified yourself, and I do see what you meant by it now. Too bad Zap wouldnt tell me...

                                         

                                        You wernt talking about the impedance load differences, only the maximum current flow and heat build up through it.

                                         

                                        And your right after the carification, in running an amp flat out with or without an attenuator will normally reduce the life of the output tubes since maximum current is flowing and maxiumum heat is being generated during this condition. I personally wouldnt have EVER run my amp flat out all the way up using an attenuator, but some idio errr... people do... ; )

                                         

                                        Which brings me to a what if question, if you will... Had Line 6 design engineers (not knowing their design and QA testing stuff) used something like an attenuator to better load test these amplifiers in cranked up over time test, before mass producing them, would we have had the problems we are seeing here in the 1st place? And if they did, then why all the failures? Did they not go far enough, or did the parts people drop the ball? An explanation from Line 6 would be an awesome read, for those who have smoked a DT series amp....

                                         

                                         

                                        Oh yea BTW- Zap. A light blub burns out quicker because its "designed" to do so. Had they placed in all US incandescent blubs a 130 volt filament,  they would not sell near as many blubs as the current (pun intended) sales records show.... But, you already knew that

                                        • TheRealZap Expert Line 6 User 11,829 posts since
                                          Dec 22, 2006
                                          Currently Being Moderated
                                          Apr 18, 2013 5:54 PM (in response to spikey)
                                          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                          spikey wrote:

                                           

                                          Which brings me to a hindsite what if question, if you will... Had Line 6 design engineers had used something like an attenuator to better load test these amplifiers in testing, before mass producing them, would we have had the problem in the 1st place? Hind sight is 20/20 isnt it...

                                          not really true, because they did fix them in production... the early ones left either missing or with the wrong fuse...

                                          I don't think the general design is at fault... as much as perhaps the implementation of that design....

                                          • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                                            Feb 1, 2007
                                            Currently Being Moderated
                                            Apr 18, 2013 6:24 PM (in response to TheRealZap)
                                            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                            TheRealZap wrote:

                                             

                                            spikey wrote:

                                             

                                            Which brings me to a hindsite what if question, if you will... Had Line 6 design engineers had used something like an attenuator to better load test these amplifiers in testing, before mass producing them, would we have had the problem in the 1st place? Hind sight is 20/20 isnt it...

                                            not really true, because they did fix them in production... the early ones left either missing or with the wrong fuse...

                                            I don't think the general design is at fault... as much as perhaps the implementation of that design....

                                            Actually, "mine" is getting fixed in "post" production Zap... After the fact of paying for and receiving the amp... Lots of others were not fixed in production either, and kinda explains the reason for this thread Im thinking... Hopefully the fuse is the issue, as time will tell. And that information came to me from my service tech about the fuse being wrong.... Not from Line 6....

                                        • spaceatl Expert Line 6 User 4,456 posts since
                                          Jan 24, 2007
                                          Currently Being Moderated
                                          Apr 19, 2013 5:36 AM (in response to spikey)
                                          Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                          My DT50 is a very very early one and I have had it since well before they were released...I have run it flat out, left it on for 72 hours at a time, run load mismatches. My personal opinion is that the design is very solid....Whatever this deal is with the power trannies is some sort of parts quality logistics issue...I don't see it as a design defect...

                                          • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                                            Feb 1, 2007
                                            Currently Being Moderated
                                            Apr 19, 2013 6:28 PM (in response to spaceatl)
                                            Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                                            Zap, of course there was a reason some of us got the bulletin, and I do know why it was i got one. It was sent to me so that the internal fuse that was replaced (with another type fuse) would up open later than the changable fuse that we can get to on the back of the amp in an over current condition... Now, the serial numbers on the units may have flagged them as to who needed the fix, but the reason for the fix was that the fuse inside the chassis was wrong and needed the right one installed. I also know that this thread exists because of those who suffered from transformer failures. Hopefully there wont be more...

                                             

                                            Space, yes mine is an early one as well that I just got back from the shop. I have run mine on a less than hard path volume wise and babied it. And I still took it in for the upgrade. I think that you should have the correct components installed even if you dont plan on pushing the limits. And that doesnt make it a defect, until of course your transformer blows up. I also think that the issue here for Line 6 was that it might fail without this upgrade done, and not that it was guaranteed to....But, it was a design change,  however small. That took a pair, and cost them $$.  And I am glad Line 6 owned up to fixing it for the user for free. Their stock went up a mark or two for me in doing that. Noted: Owning up and taking responsibilty for your actions and mistakes made, is a rare gift these days....

              • RPascarella Just Startin' 30 posts since
                Feb 19, 2009
                Currently Being Moderated
                Apr 16, 2013 9:45 AM (in response to spikey)
                Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                No attenuator here.  I was jamming along at bedroom volumes when my DT50 went out suddenly and took out the room's breaker.  No stress at all on the amp.

                • mikeywright Just Startin' 2 posts since
                  Aug 29, 2006
                  Currently Being Moderated
                  Apr 17, 2013 11:53 PM (in response to RPascarella)
                  Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                  I'm a registered Line 6 DT50 owner and did not receive an email notification. I too have experienced the infamous power transformer failure and am waiting on my amp to be repaired. Can anyone share the content of the email notification and the serial number range Line 6 identified as having power transformer issues. Thanks.

                  • spikey Just Startin' 378 posts since
                    Feb 1, 2007
                    Currently Being Moderated
                    Apr 21, 2013 8:09 AM (in response to mikeywright)
                    Re: Blown Power Transformer Club

                    I dont know what the range of serial numbers are invloved, but here is the email contents...

                     

                    (Another thing FWIW- I didnt get the email for my DT-25, and its the one that died... go figure.....)

                     

                    ..... From Line 6.....

                    You are receiving this email based on your DT50 serial number’s manufacture date. Line 6 has found that your amp qualifies for a hardware upgrade that will prevent the possible failure of its power supply. This upgrade will be performed free of charge under Technical Bulletin 059 and can be performed in one of two ways:

                    • Contact your local Line 6 Authorized Service Center and request that Technical Bulletin 059 be performed. It may be best to contact one or more service centers ahead of time to understand when you can expect the amp to be repaired. For a listing of Authorized Service Centers in your area, please go to http://line6.com/service_centers/.
                    • Contact Line 6 directly and ship the amp to us. Package the unit in a box with adequate packing material to insulate it from possible freight damage (Line 6 is not responsible for freight damage due to insufficient packaging.) We suggest you use a method of shipping that offers a tracking number. We will make the repair and ship the amp back to you, so please make sure that your Line 6 account’s shipping address is updated. The repair can be set up in one of two ways:
                      • Open an RMA (Return Material Authorization) service request ticket via your Line 6 user account (this method expedites the process). To do this, log in to your Line 6 Account. Click this link: http://line6.com/support/tickets/add.html. Type “repair” in the search box, then click “Open Ticket." Select your amp and then request an RMA to have TB059 performed. You will receive an RMA number and shipping instructions via the ticket.
                      • If you prefer to call us: dial 818-575-3600, press 3 for Technical Support and Customer Service, press 3 for the Service Department, then press 2 for Repairs (RMA request).

                     

                    We want to make sure that your DT50 will perform well for years to come, so we feel this action is necessary. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue may cause you.

                     

                     

                    Best Regards,

                     

                    Line 6 Customer Service

                     

                    End

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