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283 Views 13 Replies Latest reply: Mar 4, 2013 3:54 PM by RonMarton RSS
beastofbourbon Just Startin'
beastofbourbon
33 posts since
Mar 16, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Feb 24, 2013 6:20 PM

XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

Hi,

 

I'm looking to use these together at a gig soon. BOTH units are AWESOME on their own.

 

Is there anything I should keep in mind when using these units together?

 

Thanks!

 

Geoff

 

Voicelive Play: http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/voicelive-play/

  • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
    RonMarton
    357 posts since
    Jan 12, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 24, 2013 9:40 PM (in response to beastofbourbon)
    Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

    You're absolutely right, Geoff...

     

    The excellent and intuitive "player based" ergonomics of TC Helicon's rugged little VoiceLive Play GTX, along with its overall sonic excellence (all for what is, to my mind, an amazingly low price) make it an ideal "playing partner" for the pristine sound that comes from an XD-V system.

     

    In common with most floor-bound "stomp box" systems, however, the one thing to watch "on the road" is its rear panel, both the DC input connector, as well as the security of other rear panel connections.

     

    First to the DC.

     

    As with XD-V systems, starving the device of current and/or feeding it "dirty" DC via a non-standard "wall wart" can initiate a disaster that, while not necessarily being immediately apparent, can trigger a devastating "time bomb".

     

    The "security"?

     

    A mid-gig disconnection is the last thing you want, so actually using a Kensington Lock (from any computer outlet) installed into the VoiceLive's thoughtfully provided rear-panel "K Lock" socket will provide a convenient strain-relieving "anchor point" for connections, whether simply via a captive and sturdy rubber band, or using something like a hook n' loop "rip tie."

     

    Last of all, (and at great risk of "preaching to the choir") ...although it may seem convenient to use a short XL patch cable and have the XD-V receiver on the floor physically close to the VoiceLive, the two really do demand separate locations, with the receiver best located high off the floor.

     

    Achieving this with a few extra bucks spent on a high quality 3-5m (10-15ft) XLM to XLF mic cable, such as these examples

     

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/194516-REG/Canare_CXLRP_XLRJ_15B_G_CXLRP_XLRJ_15B_G_Star_Quad_L_4E6S.html

     

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLR10/ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/194516-

     

    (to go from receiver's "Out" to the VoiceLive's "Mic" input) would be money very well spent.

    • beastofbourbon Just Startin'
      beastofbourbon
      33 posts since
      Mar 16, 2007
      Currently Being Moderated
      Feb 25, 2013 8:15 AM (in response to RonMarton)
      Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

      Great safety measures Ron!

       

      I've been testing the Line6 alongside  a wired Shure beta 58a and I've noticed that the Line 6 signal seems to have a "doubled" or "Ghosted" quality to it as opposed to the wired mic sounding very "clean". I've run both mics through the VLP (using the same mic cable). Is there something I'm doing wrong or is this just a situation I'm going to have to live with. When I have both mics bypassing the VLP, neither one gets the "ghosting". What do you think is happening?

       

      Thanks again for all your help Ron!

       

      geoff

      • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
        RonMarton
        357 posts since
        Jan 12, 2012
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 25, 2013 12:13 PM (in response to beastofbourbon)
        Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

        I think you'd best beware of anyone who says they're not "guessing" (as I am) with regard to this strange artefact, Geoff...

         

        My only thought would be to try an experiment that involves "rolling off" the top end response of your XD-V handheld by "muffling" its input with additional foam over its metal windscreen, ...by which I mean layers of something like the non-acoustic "furniture" or "light bulb" packing foam that's denser than that of popper-stopper windscreens.

         

        What I'm getting at is the "speed" with which each mic handles transients, setting aside (for the moment, ...but nevertheless remembering) the fact that the Line 6 XD-V handheld presents an electronic, digitally-created frequency response "model" of a beta58 as opposed to the purely passive electrical signals that come from Shure's original.

         

        As it happens, I'm blessed in that my old ears regularly benefit from true "state of the art" monitoring from the multinational likes of A.T.C, Dynaudio, Focal, Genelec, Neumann and/or my trusted Sennheiser HD25 headsets ...and those old ears tell me that nearly all of Line 6's "models" seem a bit "faster" in handling top-end transients (in vocal mic terms, above roughly 5kHz) than the "original" cabled dynamic vocal mics upon which they're based.

         

        Same when an original Shure beta58 PGX wireless "head" replaces Line 6's capsule atop an XD-V handheld.

         

        Hence the proposed "trial" that I'd like to hear about.

         

        Should my suggested rough and ready "removal" of some of that top-end spectrum diminish your "ghosted" artefact, it would be a "pointer" to the way that TC Helicon's VoiceLive Play unit actually "handles" a transient response that is faster than that from the cabled mics for which it was originally designed.

         

        (Sadly, I haven't one here that I can try as the acquaintance that owns one is currently overseas with hers.)

         

        "Is there something I'm doing wrong or is this just a situation I'm going to have to live with..."

         

        I reckon you'll already have discovered that there's not a lot you can actually do "wrong" with either device !

         

        (That's one of the main reasons I love both of them.)

         

        As for living with it, I'm wondering how evident your "accidental chorus" would really be over a system at an actual gig, as distinct from a direct "A to B" comparison in the "splendid isolation" of the home or rehearsal "studio" ?

         

        Your thanks are very much appreciated, Geoff, ...but I'm sure you appreciate that being in a position to occasionally "repay" the great assistance others gave me is both a privilege and a reward in itself.

         

        I doubt, however, that I've been much help at all with this particular problem...   

      • dboomer Line 6 Support
        dboomer
        1,997 posts since
        Oct 13, 2008
        Currently Being Moderated
        Feb 25, 2013 3:54 PM (in response to beastofbourbon)
        Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

        Hey Geoff

         

        Do you hear this "ghosting" if you remove the pedal?  I've never experienced it but my first guess would be that it is somehow being caused by something enabled in the pedal.

        • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
          RonMarton
          357 posts since
          Jan 12, 2012
          Currently Being Moderated
          Feb 25, 2013 9:44 PM (in response to dboomer)
          Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

          But only with Geoff's XD-V75 ? ???

        • beastofbourbon Just Startin'
          beastofbourbon
          33 posts since
          Mar 16, 2007
          Currently Being Moderated
          Feb 27, 2013 10:47 PM (in response to dboomer)
          Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

          Hi Mr Boomer,

           

          The "Ghosting is noticable with the wireless unit, but when I use a wired unit instead it's not apparent.

          • dboomer Line 6 Support
            dboomer
            1,997 posts since
            Oct 13, 2008
            Currently Being Moderated
            Feb 28, 2013 1:36 PM (in response to beastofbourbon)
            Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

            I'm not clear.  Do you hear the problem listening directly from the outputs of the wireless and not passing into anything else?

             

            If so can you send me a wav file recorded directly off the outputs of the receiver?

            • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
              RonMarton
              357 posts since
              Jan 12, 2012
              Currently Being Moderated
              Feb 28, 2013 1:59 PM (in response to dboomer)
              Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

              My reading, Don, is that both mics (cabled "original" and XD-V75 "b58 model") are fine in themselves, but that only the XD-V75 will exhibit the "ghosting" artefact ...and that only when operating through Geoff's TC Helicon VoiceLive Play GTX.

               

              Hence my reasoning that a variation between the two sources in the slew rate or speed of response to transients (possibly due to the more direct coupling of the XD-V receiver's output stage when compared to the cabled mic) may have some bearing on the issue.

          • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
            RonMarton
            357 posts since
            Jan 12, 2012
            Currently Being Moderated
            Mar 4, 2013 12:27 PM (in response to beastofbourbon)
            Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

            THE BIG "EUREKA!" MOMENT...

             

            (I hope) ...Arising from me now having had a VoiceLive to "Play" for a short time.

             

            Hello again, Geoff.

             

            I'm hoping that what you've been describing is the actual audio delay (known as "latency") of around 2-4 milliseconds which is inherent in the XD-V75's digital processing, but can almost only be experienced via "parallel paths" such as those available at the TC Helicon VoiceLive Play's 3.5mm rear-panel headphone output.

             

            Shure's cabled beta58, being fully analog (hence "unprocessed") doesn't have any of this this "latency" delay.

             

            If what I've just heard is what's been bothering you, it's all down to the VoiceLive's inbuilt "RoomSense" mics, so your "ghosting" can be exorcised at will by turning down the "RoomSense" level into your headset.

             

            (So there'll be no need for Steven King's priest, nor for his bell, book and candle.)

             

            So what is actually going on ?

             

            The cabled beta58a, (having no delay) will be pretty much "in sync" with the pair of inbuilt mics that form part of the "RoomSense/Ambient" monitoring system, so the effect of mixing the two systems together into your headset passes almost un-noticed, ....BUT, ...when you substitute the almost identical-sounding XD-V "version", you hear your vocals first from the inbuilt "RoomSense" pair, then a few milliseconds later from your "b58-modeled" XD-V75.

             

            Hence the comb-filtered and "slightly-phased delay" haunting.

             

            It's typical of TC Helicon's CommonSense that "RoomSense" doesn't appear at the VoiceLive's stereo XL outputs that are intended for gigs, as it would be a certain (if not Shure) source of feedback and other weirdness.

             

            As for your levitation, neck turning through 360º, spewing of green slime and shouting of satanic incantations, ...those are just the normal consequences of dealing with Road Crew.

             

            Just deal with them ...and move on.

            • dboomer Line 6 Support
              dboomer
              1,997 posts since
              Oct 13, 2008
              Currently Being Moderated
              Mar 4, 2013 10:51 AM (in response to RonMarton)
              Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

              Hey Ron

               

              This might be the case if you plugged both the wired and XDV mics at the same time.  But the VoiceLive doesn't ever have any reference to the original sound vs latency when the XDV is used.

               

              I can't explain why Geoff is hearing what he is hearing.  One thing he might try when back at the bench would be to run the XDV into a mic pre on the mixer.  Then pull a direct out from the mixer and plug it into the VoiceLive.  that would effectively buffer the XDV from the VoiceLive.  It would be interesting to know if the problem persists beyond this.

               

              One other thing Geoff

               

              When you are testing wired vs wireless do you just unplug the cable from the wired mic and plug it into the wireless receiver without making any other adjustments?

              • RonMarton Iknowathingortwo
                RonMarton
                357 posts since
                Jan 12, 2012
                Currently Being Moderated
                Mar 4, 2013 3:45 PM (in response to dboomer)
                Re: XD-V75 with Beta 58a capsule and Tc Helicon Voicelive Play Effects Unit.

                "But the VoiceLive doesn't ever have any reference to the original sound vs latency when the XDV is used."

                 

                Trust me, Don...

                 

                It does.

                 

                ...And you'll see from a proper re-reading that I also think I've managed to duplicate and personally experience Geoff's "ghosting" artefact.

                 

                As I wrote in my "Eureka" reply, TC Helicon's VoiceLive Play features an inbuilt pair of its own (very natural sounding) "pinhole" pressure-zone electret mics that can be mixed into the player's headset, ...a technique selectable and controllable using the "Ambient/Auto" setting of its marvellous "RoomSense" menu and its "Mix" button.

                 

                Any "player" can quite happily sing into that headset via the VoiceLive's "invisible" pair of mics with this function (or its "Voice" function) enabled and absolutely NOTHING connected to its rear-panel inputs.

                 

                A "spooky" experience that verges on the paranormal, ...hence my reference to Linda Blair's iconic demonic possession scene from "The Exorcist".

                 

                (I assumed at the outset that Geoff would already be aware of more recent exorcism techniques based on those pioneered by Doctors J. Daniels, J. Beam and W. Turkey.)

                 


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