Nov 5, 2009 3:06 PM
A thought on the whole Fractal vs Line 6 thing
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Jun 6, 2010 1:52 AM by
Rainald 
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I haven't read up much on the Axe-FX because it is pretty much beyond my budget, but I have always wondered why Line6 doesn't offer much flexibility in programming when compared to the Boss products. I guess they focused their efforts on more flexibility in connectivity. So, each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but comparing a $500 box to a $2000 box is really a futile exercise, isn't it?
BTW - As entertaining as that other thread is (with over 49,000 views and over 350 post) I have a slow computer and it pretty much locks up whenever I try to view that thread
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I have tried a simple method for evaluation of sound quality differences between gear. I think it is a good method so I thought I would share it with you (sorry if you are already are familiar with it, I´m just an happy amateur who just learned this method and got inspired of it!
).Take the two modellers mentioned here as an example. A Pod and the Axe-Fx.
Dial in a sound on the Pod (the one with less controls) that you want to compare.
Do your best at trying to copy that sound with the Axe-Fx. Use all controls available if needed.
When you are done you can now listen to the difference in sound quality between the units producing that one sound.
Do the same for all sounds you want to compare, like different amp models and so on.
You should now have a good subjective opinion on the differences that has to do with the units´ sound quality.
There will of course be sounds that you can dial in on a unit like the Axe-Fx that the Pod can´t produce. These differences are (well, obviously) because of the number of tweakable parameters and possible differences in their ranges.
/variAxel
(this is my first post and did something wrong, it is not meant to be a reply to you, timowens, just a general one)
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Thanks a lot for your comments! My intention for writing this is to try to learn a bit more about digital gear. I want to be as neutral as possible regarding the different brands, although I hyped the Axe in my previous post.
I just came home from playing two shows this evening with the Variax 300 -> Pod X3L -> Atomic Reactor FR.
The sound really has some kind of "trashy" character that I would want to get rid of... I don´t know of a better way to describe it! It sounds rather good and feels great!, but I want to take the sound quality a step further.
I have played a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with analog pedals and a Strat and Ibanez Lawsuite LP before, but am testing this digital gear now. I usually have the Fender amp volume rather low when playing live, about 4/10. So I really don´t come even close to the sweet spot.
The analog gear does not sound "trashy" at all. But it is actually more fun to play the digital gear because it feels... hmmm... it just feels more fun! Can this be because it emulates tube amps at their sweet spot?
Hope my explainations are clear enough to understand, my native language is not english. Feel free to tell me if I´m wrong in my conclusions, cause I want your comments, and I don´t mean anything bad about Line6 by calling the sound "trashy". It is just my try at describing what I hear/feel so you might be able to point me in some direction on how to improve my digital rig. Cause I really like digital gear more than analog (well, I´m working as a computer engineer
) except for the fact that I have problems knowing how to make it sound better than now. Should I maybe get another modeller?I got my head virtually sliced off on another forum a while ago just by writing straight out what I was thinking about some gear, stupidly and naively believing that I would get some constructive comments to what I had understood correctly and what was wrong with my conclusions. So I´m really a bit nervous that I write something that seems offending.
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The short version: My conclusion combining my own thoughts with the highly valuable input from you Karl is that the next thing for me to test should be a modeller with the feature to turn off mic sims, or one that has an FRFR mic option. This might be the solution that gets me a good enough (or maybe even great!) emulation of a "tube amp in the room" sound and feel.
The long version:
Regarding your questions and comments I will start off by describing in more detail my thoughts and knowledge/experience with the gear:
Before I bought the Atomic FRFR my thoughts were:
- I want to be able to use the Pod or other digital gear instead of my tube amp/analog pedals.
- There is the possible solution to go half way and use the Pod with my HR Deluxe amp. But I had ruled out that one because I thought the Pod didn´t sound good through it. But because of this thread, I´ve been encouraged to give it another try as it, quite naturally, might have been my tweaking of the amp and Pod that made me rule out this option.
- But there are more reasons that I really want the FRFR solution to be good enough for me. One is that it enables the use of different cabinet simulations. This might actually be a disadvantage thou, as the real HR Deluxe might actually sound better than any of the emulations
But there is another more important reason to me and that is to be able to use acoustic guitars/emulations, banjos, resonators and even synth sounds (I´m temped by the VG-99) that are best played through an FRFR amp (maybe not banjos and resonators thou?!). Some would say that I should go with a set of nice real guitars and a tube amp, but the more I test the digital gear, the more I actually start to think that an all digital solution can sound and feel so good to me, so I actually will go with that solution!Dang, I´m really writing a lot!! What I really wanted to point out was this:
When I bought the Atomic FRFR I knew about the mic sims in the Pod. I knew the only way to turn them off would be to also deactivate the cab sim. I hoped that the mic sims would just consist of a slight EQ change so that they wouldn´t do too much harm. But they seem to be well done and add more than just some EQ. I read a comment about someone thinking the mic-sims in modellers usually tend to be too "phasey". Maybe this can be translated into what I describe as "thrashy"?
I thought that at least in theory, the best way to emulate an actual tube amp in the room with a modeller and an FRFR system would be to use all the features of the modeller EXCEPT for the mic sims. And I also thought that the best FRFR system for me, all taken into account, would be the Atomic FRFR. And I still think so.
I thought if the mic-sims is a problem, then I might go with another modeller, at least the Axe-Fx is one that is able to be run with cab sims but without mic sims. Found that info in the Wiki on Fractal website. It should even be possible to route the signal to use mic-sims on one output, for the sound system (I have just learned this is called FOH in english
) and turn off mic-sims on the other output going to the FRFR. Has this to do with them saying that "Axe-Fx has a special mode for use with the Atmoic FR" ?I have read the manuals of the VG-99 and Boss GT-10 during the last week and they have this hypothetical mic that is perfectly FRFR. Manual says this will give a sound close to that of an actual amp in the room. I think that seems very likely.
I´m using the Studio Direct mode. I have tried the other modes before in fullrange systems (like studio headphones and my quality hifi) and it did not sound good. Well, it just sounded as it should, like the "dist-pedal into mixer" sound.
I have spent some time this morning going through the different output modes to answer your question Karl.
When cab/mic sim is off it sounds horrible as it should. Reagardless of output mode, even the stack poweramp mode that you suggest, doesn´t come close to being OK! I have tested the entire range of the tweeter knob. The only way to get rid of the buzzy bad sound is to dial it at about 0-5% from minimum. But then it sounds horrible in another way, because of the vast lack of treble!
I realize thou, that with detailed tweaking of EQ, it might be possible to be able to tune the sound to be usable, but as of this moment, I really think I would rather buy a unit with mic sims that can be bypassed/FRFR mic sims.This makes me think that the Atomic FR is really a very good FRFR unit! I have read comments like yours about the older versions of the Atomic, being some sort of in the middle of a guitar amp and an FRFR unit. I´m glad that my tests (not only theese tests I did today) points me towards that the new Atomic FR really is a good FRFR unit!
This is my conclusion as of this moment: I agree with you Karl about the "no mic/FRFR mic" option. This thought has passed my mind, but I thought that it might not do enough difference at all! I thought the Pod had too bad amp/power amp modelling to be ok to me. But because of your comment I have new hope that a cheaper unit actually might be good enough for me! So, big thanks! I will try it out as soon as I get my hand on a proper unit!
Then, if this test is positive, then the real fun begis. The descision to if I will continue using a cheaper unit or if I go with the Axe-Fx
As I´m an amature I´m not sure if I am sensitive enough to the real tube amps qualities so I can justify the price of it. But I´m stupid enough to admit that I think that I might actually be, at least to some reasonable extent On the other hand, the Axe-Fx actually costs less than the analog pedals I own (the ones in the wardrobe included ). Well, that´s another discussion really, but an interesting one of course. -
I have done a bit more testing. Got better results than in my previous test. Stack power amp seems best, but combo power amp is usable too. There still is a degree of this cheesy quality (guitar direct to mixer) to it thou.
If I would try this setting at rehersal it would propably be more obvious if the "cheesyness" is something that makes a huge difference or if it can be dialed away well enough.
Anyway, there is at least one major negative thing about using the gear this way for me. It is the problems there will be when using for example an acoustic simulation on the Variax, then I will have too little treble because of the low tweeter setting. Can of course be dialed up in the Pod to compensate.
Well....
Hmmm... the most interesting thing to do still would be to try another modeller to test the results with no mic/FRFR mic.I really want a "correct" setup that actually do what I dial it to do. Don´t want the need to compensate with the tweeter dial and EQ and so on to make it right. And I still believe that "cheesyness" may be hard to really get rid of... and to be quite honest, I WANT to think so, to justify getting another modeller....
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By using the stack poweramp that "trashy" sound seems to be gone. Just raw, straight rock´n roll tone
Not that the mic simulations are bad, they sound great when recorded or in the PA, but I definitely do not want that in my stage sound! I want only the amp/cab sound.What about those Tonelab products? You have owned some of them? Do they allow mic-sims to be turned off?
I really think your solution is great, using no mic sims. That way the PA will really be like a HUGE kW´s guitar amp pointing straight out at the audience, and that´s the way we want it
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Can´t find my Red box. Maybe I should order an Axe-Fx instead. Is it worth that kind of money to get rid of the mic sims and wouldn´t need to search more for the Red box. Hmmm, tempting
. Seriously, I´m very very interested in the Axe-Fx, but if a Pod X3L minus cab/mic sims plus an extra cab emulator makes me happy then maybe I should spend the money on something else. But on the other hand... if I get happy with the Pod I might get REALLY happy with the Axe-Fx Sorry, just thinking out loud here.The amp sims alone makes the Axe-Fx very tempting. And then there is the effect part of it, it IS really a great feeling playing through high quality effects...
Maybe a liquid foot JR to control it with. *thinking* and drooling...
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Great gear! I have a cheap 8" Thomann cyberstore monitor, a Peavey CP12 that I bought used for a good price and then the Atomic FR. I think the Atomic is the only one that is good enough to use as an amp for modellers.
I actually bought a Tonelab LE yesterday! I tested the LE and a Boss GT-10 just with headphones at one of the music instruments stores in town.
They both impressed me, but in different ways. The Tonelab impressed me with its amp tones and the depth of the rotary effect and the overall "real" feel. They had a fine discount (>25% off) so I couldn´t resist buying it!
The GT-10 impressed me with it´s high technological feel, it felt mighty
. But the sound, both of the presets and my own tweaking, I would say is beaten by both the LE and the X3L. But that was just a short test.Anyway, I´m happy having a modeller without mic sims, and one that seems to have really good features for live use.
A thought about the X3L: To get the most authentic amp in the room sound, do you think it would be by using the SM57 mic on axis? I have to try that one and do a good comparision. I have been using the condenser mic sims for the two live shows the last week.
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Yes the Deluxe is still here! I have used the Pod with it a couple of years ago but thought the analog pedals sounded better with it so I just stopped using the Pod.
The sound was very good at home thou! But when on stage or rehersal with other instruments playing, it seemed to me that the Pod wasn´t REALLY up to the task.
I had the presence control at 5! I thought that was the neutral position. But I believe you say, between the lines, that zero is neutral, and the whole range means boosting presence. Do I get that right?
Damn, seems like I know NOTHING about the gear I use. Have played the deluxe since 1997.
Anyway, one thing that I feel is different when using Pod compared to analog pedals (at my volume levels, below 4) is that without the Pod, the amp reacts more when I hit the strings. I usually call that "having stronger dynamics". When I play the Pod I can hit the strings really hard but am unable to get the same push from the amp.
My theory about this is that the Pod emulates the amps with powerstages driven so hard so they compress the signal and that is what I feel. The deluxe should be fairly linear at the volume levels I use. Does this make any sense?
I have actually had some experience of gigging with the volume above the 3-4 range, not often at all, but those times, especially when kicking in overdrive/dist, the amp has really started to sing. It´s a great feeling
I´m testing Karl´s tips right now, will come back with my initial thoughts on those in a while.
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Tone is all in the fingers. If Ken didn't solder it, it sucks.
Kinda weird that Cieratone sells em buy the bushel now. Apparently we've made signifigant advances in soldering technique that allow the common man to achieve the solder joints of the gods.
I'm going to build the Express. Mainly because it's simple and so am I.
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Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:
Going back to your original post, I see what you mean and my perspective on the whole thing is that if you're going to "model" something that exists then it makes sense to model the parameters of that thing in the way that those parameters are controlled on the original. If you go beyond that then it is no longer modelling, it is creating new effects or tones.
People have slammed me for defending the Line 6 warts and all style of faithful amp and effects reproduction, but it is those classic tones that I would like to access using the gear. If I wanted to make all sorts of weird non guitar type sounds then I'd get synths and all sorts of other whacky DSP devices. That's why the Line 6 gear suits me.
On a side note, I have built myself a point to point, hand wired Matchless DC30 clone. Why??? Because I love the tone and I want to keep that tone after the computer modelling chips are discontinued. So, if you find a classic tone that you love, you're better off building it out of 100% analogue gear. Otherwise, you might lose the tone you love during a technology update in the gear you're using.
Cheers,
Crusty
P.S. I am also considering building a Marshall 1970x clone too.
Crusty, it looks like we've gone full circle.
one of the benefits (at least 'advertised' benefits) behind transistor amps and then modeling was that they offer more consistency than tubes. of course your notion of tubes being more future proof than modeling assumes that there will always be somebody making tubes--that wasn't a given not too many years ago--and that they don't change the design or processes of the tubes that they make. i don't know about Amplitube, Waves GTR, Guitar Rig, etc. but i think that Line 6 has been pretty consistent in tone from platform to platform. I think that if it is their goal to maintain a consistent sound as they migrate from chip to chip they can do it--at least to the extent that you would be able to mic up your amp, record it, re-tube your amp after 6 months or so of playing, mic it up again and get the same results (it's entirely possible that you're recording interface and mic have changed too.) when they make changes to take advantage of new DSP resources you don't hear too many complaints--of course you do hear some. i have played the above mentioned alternatives and it didn't take me too long to get some tones that could be substituted for my existing go-to's--nice to know just in case my modeler of choice ceases to exist. of course there is a little of the Princess and the Pea kind of thing going on here--i am very likely less sensitive to the minute detail of tone--so it's always going to come down to what makes you happy.don't get me wrong--i'm not trying to start another tube vs modeling debate--i don't have anything against tube amps.
that said, i'd be very interested in seeing your hand-wired amp and, more importantly hear about the experience of doing it and maybe get a sample or two. i have often looked at the Marshall knock-off kits and thought it would be a cool project. have you posted anything anywhere?
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