Community: Lack of support for Linux

nuser101

178 posts since
Jan 24, 2007

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75. Jan 31, 2010 6:22 AM (in response to linz)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

linz wrote:

There are many high end, paid-for graphics applications available for Linux which are strictly closed source. It's simply not true to say that you can't provide non open source apps on Linux.

What you say is true, but as of GPL v3, there are perceived differences between what people do and what they have a legal right to do that have not yet been resolved.

The following is a lazy, but accurate quote from the wiki on the subject of GPL. More details can be found at linux.org.

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Linking and derived works

A key dispute related to the GPL is whether or not non-GPL software can be dynamically linked to GPL libraries. The GPL is clear in requiring that all derivative works of code under the GPL must themselves be under the GPL. While it is understood that static linking produces derivative works, it is not clear whether an executable that dynamically links to a GPL code should be considered a derivative work (see Weak Copyleft). The free/open-source software community is split on this issue. The FSF asserts that such an executable is indeed a derivative work if the executable and GPL code "make function calls to each other and share data structures",^[35] with certain others agreeing (e.g. Jerry Epplin^[36]), while some (e.g. Linus Torvalds) agree that dynamic linking can create derived works but disagree over the circumstances.^[37] On the other hand, some experts have argued that the question is still open: one Novell lawyer has written that dynamic linking not being derivative "makes sense" but is not "clear-cut",^[38] but that evidence for good-intentioned dynamic linking can be seen by the existence of proprietary Linux kernel drivers. Lawrence Rosen has claimed that a court of law would "probably" exclude dynamic linking from derivative works although "there are also good arguments" on the other side and "the outcome is not clear"^[39] (on a later occasion, he argued that "market-based" factors are more important than the linking technique^[40]). This is ultimately a question not of the GPL per se, but of how copyright law defines derivative works. In Galoob v. Nintendo the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals defined a derivative work as having "'form' or permanence" and noted that "the infringing work must incorporate a portion of the copyrighted work in some form", but there have been no clear court decisions to resolve this particular conflict.

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captainbob

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76. Jan 31, 2010 11:26 AM (in response to nuser101)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Nuser is absolutely correct.

I said there was an unresolved legal issue concerning derivative work. I said to look it up for yourselves.

And no, this does not offend me. A man talking to a cat. The cartoonist undoubtedly feels secure in his knowledge that the wold around him is exactly as he perceives. Thanks for the laughs.

Not changing the subject....Karl was right, its true, I do not have the technological expertise to understand or explain exactly how a computer system performs latency compensation.

But thats really a small point. Karl's whole arguement has been, nobody uses Linux because, #1, its a tiny market share, and #2 Its just not ready yet.

Here are some more examples of how Linux is ok for home use, but for serious commercial applications, this poor and unconfigarable system, is best left in the hands of anti capitalist idealists hell bent on adhering to some freeware philosophy....and hobbiests...

Doesn't Microsoft make servers? Don't they make specialty apps as well?

IBM and Linux: http://www-03ibm.com/linux/

http//:www.linuxlaptop.net/ibm.html

Financial: http://ostatic.com/blog/the-washington-post-says-thumbs-up-to-linux-for-banking

http://www.novell.com/sucess/fnb_omaha.html

And this one: NSW Police: Don't use Windows for Internet banking http://www.itnews.com.au/News/157767,nsw-police-don't-use-windows-for-internet-banking.aspx

AND I MENTIONED THE NYSE HAS ADOPTED LINUX DIDN'T I?

Heres some more companies too: Anderson Accounting Systems, Banco BNL do Brasil, Netherlands Foreigh Investment Agency, First Data Resources, Mivtach-Simon Insurance Agencies, Intech, on and on.

A far cry from, not a single financial institution in the world would touch Linux with a ten foot pole...

Heres a link to a list of industries that use Linux. Click the highlighted listings, and you will get a page with specific companies.

http://mtechit.com/linux-biz/

Its true the adoption rates for the home desktop user remain very small. You will never see a Linux ad on TV, nor will you ever find Linux in any store with perhaps, Perhaps,.. the exception of Red Hat, but I could be wrong on that. People don't know what Linux is, nor would they even know where to get it.

But it makes for a fine desktop. I have great compatibility with Windows, although true, I cannot run certain Windows/Mac programs. But we covered that.

So nobody is using Linux in industry?

I'm not changing the subject. This IS the subject.

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Karl_Houseknecht

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77. Jan 31, 2010 11:42 AM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

captainbob wrote:

And no, this does not offend me. A man talking to a cat.

Oh, but that's not just any cat. It is Catbert, the evil human resources director. Nor is it any man. That is the PHB. While not technical, nor particularly smart, the PHB is representative of management at many companies that refuse take certain platforms, like linux, into consideration.

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captainbob

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78. Jan 31, 2010 11:46 AM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Quote, "There isn't a financial institution out there that would touch Linux with a ten foot pole. Again, not saying thats right, JUST SAYING THATS HOW IT IS.

See, what captainbob does is present a poor arguement, you give him the RIGHT answer, then he pretends that is what he's been saying all along. Then he changes the subject."

Thanks for the laughs karl...

Look up derivative work...the questions that surround that topic, what source code you have to provide, vs what you don't, is a major reason why some companies may not be willing to write programs for the Linux platform, at least until its been resolved and is CLEAR.

And because of that, I can understand why Line 6 might not be willing to do that, but then again, they haven't even gotten anything that will run properly on Windows Seven either.

I think thats enough.

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Closer

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Jan 12, 2008

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79. Jan 31, 2010 12:00 PM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Who says about freeware? Just because You make a soft for linux doesn`t mean it has to be GNU or GPL licenced, it can be closed source as well. As i said You pay anyway, You pay for hardware, drivers and gearbox come for free. Hardware works, that`s absolutely right, but how You re going to do amp modelling or fx on (for example) UX2 without PodFarm? Without software UX2 is only recording interface. PODxt can record only in the analog way without usb drivers, if there`s a possibility od digital recording, why not to use it?

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Karl_Houseknecht

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80. Jan 31, 2010 12:54 PM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

captainbob wrote:

but then again, they haven't even gotten anything that will run properly on Windows Seven either.

+1 I'll drink to that. Not going to make the move to either 7 or Snow Leopard until those are settled in. Doesn't look like it'll be too much longer, though.

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captainbob

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81. Jan 31, 2010 2:44 PM (in response to Closer)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Well Closer, on the one hand, I do wish more software could be safely made available to run on Linux without risk of a future adverse court ruling. On the other hand, not really sure I want third party software crapping up a perfectly good system either. I would personally be very careful what commercial programs if made available I would choose to install.

I do not know if Line 6 software would need to incorporate any GPL licensed components in order for it to work on Linux. I don't know. But for other applications that is very well the case. And there is a major cause for concern in doing that.

For consistancys sake, I'll include quotes here...

Page 1 Jan 12th:

Line 6 would be required by law to give all their software away for free...

*Including source code is the same as giving it away. It could be legally copied then legally sold or given away.

Page 1 Jan 12th:

If a project is under the GPL then anything you derive from it must also be released under the GPL. ....but anyone who buyt it must be provided with the source code and you cannot prevent them from selling it or giving it away for free.

* Thats my personal interpertation of GPL. No one knows for sure what parts or if all, fall under GPL if GPL licensed code is used WITHIN the project.

Page 2 Jan 13th:

A program that runs on Linux may tie into the kernel. If the program has GPL lisensed components to make it run, then it would be a licensing violation.

*Again, this example, my own personal opinion....However its a valid one and is shared by many. There are those who interpret GPL this way, and those who don't. It will take a court ruling to settle this. Until then, as of now, this interpretation is cause for concern amoung those who wish to use GPL licensed components WITHIN their own programs.

On Page 2 Nuser supports this with his own posting. Read it on page 2...

And I have said a couple of times before on this thread to look up derivitave work concerning Linux for yourself.

I may not always use the most accurate words when describing what I am saying. Sometimes I make the mistake in assuming others will know what I am talking about, and don't feel the need to explain in great detail, I am assuming no one here is 5 years old, and would wish not to be treated as such. There are exceptions...

But with a few exceptions myself, I have been as consistant as I can.

I am getting bored with this thread.

Its been explained Linux is ready for audio recording. I use it. No, I don't expect to see a massive adoption of Linux by the music industry anytime soon. I think audio studios will continue to use whatever they are using now, because its working for them. They will change only when necessary, and many because of PERSONAL PREFERENCE will move up the ladder to newer Windows platforms. But I do expect to see Linux start to make inroads into the Music recording industry. Because it works.

Its been explained that there is much concern over the topic of derivative works, and that is a major cause of concern for those who may wish to write programs for the Linux platform.

Look it up for yourselves.

Bottom line, and I've said this before, use whatever works for you. But some would like to spread "technomyths" about the unworkability of Linux, dispite it being their "Job" to dispell "technomyths" and dispite through their own admission, they know almost nothing about Linux. I guess if you have built a career developing for Windows, you have your bias. But Linux is easily downloaded and successfully installed by a tiny, yet broad spectrum of home users who may or may not, have any specialized computer training. And dispite a relatively small adoption rate by industry too, it IS being used across a WIDE spectrum of industry for many purposes. For purposes of national security, space exploration, stock trading, banking, Insurance and the movie industry amoung others.

I am really getting bored with this thread. Its been covered. No point in going in circles.

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captainbob

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82. Jan 31, 2010 2:49 PM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

yeah, I like you better when your drunk Karl...

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captainbob

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83. Feb 1, 2010 11:59 AM (in response to Closer)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Closer,

I'm not familiar with the UX2 or what it requires to work. Perhaps it does need Podfarm to work, I don't know. My Pod XT Pro does not need Podfarm. The hardware sends a processed signal out, and thats all I need. Yes I am currently using an analog output from the Pod, and the sound is great. Miking an amp is still the best way, and thats an analog output. Analog output from the Pod is fine. Although I live in a remote area, and blasting my Mesa Boogie is not a problem. With the right amount of drive from the tubes and just the right touch of delay, run through my Cry Baby, my Les Paul sounds steller. So does my Strat, and my Saga project strat. Problem is, I sometimes like to record at night. I cannot crank this amp while the wife sleeps. I like the Line 6 Amp Models, and they suit my sound just fine.

As for effects, my Linux system has a program that allows me to add effects, its called Creox c. So the Pod gives me my sound going in, and I can shape the sound later on using Creox.

I initally looked at a V-Amp, Behringer is thoughtful enough to make available Linux software to control this device, although not necessary. But I didn't have first hand experience with the V-Amp, by buddy uses one, and it defines his sound, onstage and at home. I was familiar with Line 6, and liked their sound very much. I thought the Pod XT Pro would suit my needs. It does.

You know Windows Seven came out, so I thought I'd upgrade. Turned out Line 6 software doesn't run on Seven, at least not yet. I wasn't gonna sit around and wait for Line 6 to get its act together. And I wasn't gonna take a step backwards and go back to XP either. I am a huge Linux fan, so I took a closer look at what Linux offered.

Took me a few weeks in my spare time to research this, get things together, overcome problems, research what hardware would suit my needs, order all of it and wait for it to arrive, then set up a working system. Then get familiar with this new system. Its a whole new OS, new programs, and new hardware. It took a lot, but should keep me going for years to come.

And I am liking the flexibility of this new system very much. So far, it seems theres nothing I cannot do. So no, I had no plans to go back to XP, nor did I intend to sit around waiting for Line 6, till my fingers developed arthritis. Maybe one day Line 6 will finally figure it out, and get current with modern platforms, Windows Mac, whatever...

And Closer...

Do you have some idea about Derivitive Works as it pertains to Linux development? Understanding this is important, because its the point to this thread.

Linux software using GPL licensed code is up for grabs in the legal arena. Its a wildcard. I couldn't tell you as an end user with no official computer education, what Pod Farm would require to run correctly on a Linux platform, but if it requires ANY GPL licensed code to function, that alone should give pause to any savy business looking to protect its interests, should this topic ever make it into a courtroom. And against that backdrop, I can see why some companies might be willing to adopt the attitude, that they just don't deal with Linux in any way shape or form.

Works for me!

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Closer

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84. Feb 2, 2010 12:08 PM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Yes, I do have an idea about derivative work, but I found it a bit too complicated to focus on, at least I thought I did. For example linux version of Opera browser uses GPL`d Qt library to view windows like preferences, or such, but Opera itself doesn`t appear to be GPL`d. So what is the way of closed source VST plugin to use for example Ardour, without being GPL licenced? I can`t tell how the relationship between closed and opened soft must be to allow these to work together without legal issues. I use linux as well, for a long time now, and I`ve always been very enthusiastc about free music production software, and I also have plans to base my setup on 64studio or Ubu Studio, which I found to be very functional. Despite some problems like for example line6 problem... You`re right, there`s no point in waiting. And at last to make a little off topic, could You tell me what gear do You use under linux, I mean recording interface, and maybe some dsp hardware, if U have one?

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captainbob

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85. Feb 2, 2010 4:43 PM (in response to Closer)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Hi Closer, I'm recording right now...

Yes it is a tricky subject. Nobody has any definitive answers yet. Some folks include GPL in closed source software, but they take a risk. For some, the short term benefits may outweigh the long term risks. Especially if they can make lots of money right now. Cross the legal bridge when they get to it.

Interface? I use an M-Audio Delta 44 card. I plug the analog out from my Pod XT right into the inputs. I plug the Delta card outputs into a mixer so I can hear it. Sounds better than my last rig. Or I mic an amp. The Pod is good though. Thats all I use. No latency problems, before when I mentioned my system slows down, I was just testing the system with the lowest adjustment to see what the system could do. The slowness of the system on the lowest setting may have been a side effect, a drain on the processor. I don't really know.

Glad you like Linux. If you go with Ubuntu, use Ubuntu Studio 9.04. I had problems with 9.10 detecting my M-Audio card, but the eariler version detected fine. But Jack is good to go in 9.10, same with 9.04. Studio 64, I have no experience with. I read a lot of small recording studios use pirated software, because the price of software is so high. Thats what I read. So yes, the cost of software is a factor,and it seems to me, anyone on a small budget, wanting to stay on the right side of the law might also want to consider this free Linux software, so long as they have half a brain, and can overcome simple configuration challanges.

Hey, good luck.

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spaceatl

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86. Feb 3, 2010 9:46 AM (in response to Karl_Houseknecht)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

One who does not know who Catbert or PHB is has not worked in the industry long, if at all...Or he is really Nick Burns posing as Captain Bob...MOVE!!!! Linux is great for tunneling porn on the company LAN without getting spotted...

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captainbob

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87. Feb 3, 2010 10:25 AM (in response to spaceatl)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

LOL!

Which industry are you refering too? LOL!

I am a printer and I've been a printer for 20 years...

I said I was not offended by a cartoon of a man talking to a cat. Its not infinate wisdom, just a cartoonist's idea of what is funny.

As far as tunneling porn without getting caught.....You 'da man! You know whats best...LOL! Any other tips???

Funny too, cause I found a dimebag of heroin in the parking lot yesterday, and brought it in and showed my boss.

Do I think he cares about porn???? Ha ha ha....

And ah....MOVE where? This is my thread...

Back to the grindstone...stop slacking... Or shall I say....Stop wacking???

Ha ha ha

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captainbob

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88. Feb 3, 2010 10:51 AM (in response to spaceatl)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

ha ha ha!!

Yes Spacealt....In response to your statement on the previous page...yes I am a Space Alien....I am,... your father....and your mom gives a wicked...

Now put down the porn and go wash your hands!

Filthy...filthy

LOL!!

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captainbob

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89. Feb 3, 2010 10:48 AM (in response to captainbob)

Re: Lack of support for Linux

Dude...seriously...

Relax about Linux.

I mean, your not feeling threatened are you? Its just a great computer system. Use whatever you like best. Its what I've been saying all along...

Some even say Explorer renders porn pictures even better than Firefox. Is that true?

Tell me your opinion.

Your the very best dude.

Your Captain

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